The Death of Lancia?

[Kitdy]

Mostly speculation at this point, but no less, I think it's an interesting discussion point. As I know UCP loves it's good automotive discussions, I decided to include this even though it's circumstantial.

From Forbes via Autoblog, German trade paper Automobilwoche cited a confidant of Sergio Marchionne saying that a Fiat-Chrysler-Opel alliance could mean the end of Lancia. The head of the Lancia dealer's association in Italy, Alessandro Alexandre said this was "a bunch of nonsense."

As some of you may know, I care not for Lancia in it's current guise (I enjoy some of their past offerings however) so I am sorta happy. However, this report could well be a fabrication.

Lancia sells 100k units according to Forbes which they say is about Saabian level, and they do alright with their niche mostly in Italy, so would Fiat really kill them off?

My question is - are they making money? I am expecting Leon and Ferrer to provide me with answers on that.

What do you guys think of this and what would the death of Lancia mean to you?

[f6fhellcat13]

While I am not a fan of the chipmunk that has been affixed to the front of the Thesis and the rest of the range, and the only current Lancias that I think are okay are the Delta and the Phedra I would be sad, but not surprised, to see it go. Of course I love Lancias of old, but it seems to me that it has become a largely irrelevant brand subject to the same badge-engineered nonsense as every other once-revered name.
I was sad to see Pontiac go (not the most accurate of comparisons, sorry) and I'll be sad to see Lancia go, but I am also somewhat resigned to the fact that they are/were largely pointless. Italians will still have pretty much the same selection and types of cars to quench their nationalistic thirst and gearheads will mourn, but nobody else will really care.

Viva Capitalism.

[digitalcraft]

There were already dead but nobody noticed until the corpses started stinking. @.@

[Kitdy]

What has Lancia done in the last 15 years of any interest at all?

I looked at their time line on Wikipedia and saw not a single car that elicited any sort of emotional or intellectual response from me.

[clutch-monkey]

what markets does lancia sell there cars in? mainly europe?

[akrmalas]

its really sad if this is true
but what did lancia really do in past few years
i live in the UAE & we dont have a dealer & most ppl dont know what lancia is

i hope they just revive it & make cars like the prototypes the made for the Fulvia & Stratos

[drakkie]

It'd be a real pity as the cars that didn't look like a poor copy of a FIAT were pretty good looking. I just hope that they have some better quality than FIAT...

To me anyways it was mostly unclear where their market really was. In the Netherlands it is a rare sight to see a Lancia, for me a Bentley is less rare a sight than a Lancia How on earth could they have made profit in the last years ? They are just overpriced, luxury FIAT's...

[LeonOfTheDead]

What has Lancia done in the last 15 years of any interest at all?

I looked at their time line on Wikipedia and saw not a single car that elicited any sort of emotional or intellectual response from me.

The Thesis. You may not like it, but it's excellent, has a comfortable ride worth a larger price, an heavy load of gizmos (working ones), basically being an S-Klasse contender at the price of an E-Klasse.
Unfortunately people were afraid it could have been like its precedessor, th Kappa which was a very bad car despite the previoius one, the Thema, being excellent again.
The, people also like to spend money so to be sure they are getting something good, therefore good cars priced behind the expected level usually don't sell better because of this, but worst.
Finally, if you aren't German, you doesn't count.

what markets does lancia sell there cars in? mainly europe?

Continental Europe, with the Ypsilon being the main seller and a good one too. Don't know precisely how the Delta is going, there are a lot over here, but it's Italy.

Since all of their cars are re-enginered Fiats, I could say the costs have to be relatively low, therefore a profit, despite perhaps being small, it's possible.

I don't have figures on the sales, I always forget the site Ferrer keeps giving me, which on the other hand revealed to contain some errors here and there.

EDIT: I forgot to say:

I don't think Lancia is at the end of the line. The Delta has just been released, the new Ypsilon is been developed since a year and it's already under testing, and Lancia itself is useful for Fiat to cut costs by half almost selling similar cars with higher prices just changing the exterior/interior of each model.
It's not the Lancia we knew, but even the new Delta is good ride, comfortable and well assembled.
And then this: the new Maserati Quattroporte is not going to share the chassis and other main parts (maybe the smaller engines) with the almost-mythological Alfa Romeo 169.
that's because the QP VI will be developed on the California and 612 replacement platform.

[Ferrer]

If Fiat lets Lancia die it's the end of it as far as I'm concerned.

As for the state of Lancia, well ever since FGA bought Alfa Romeo in 1986 it was almost death of Lancia. Fiat decided that Alfa Romeo would be the group's sporty brand and that Lancia would be the group's luxury brand. At the time Lancia was a successful brand with a good image and a very successful rallying program and great cars like the Delta Integrale and the Thema 8.32 which managed to sell about 300.000 cars on some years, incidentally the target set by Fiat for Alfa Romeo and Lancia for 2010. Alfa Romeo was basically nowhere, with poor sales and a bad image thanks to the reliability and quality issues they had.

All of a sudden though Lancia's rallying programme was terminated and all the racing money was shifted to Alfa Romeo and their touring car campaigns. At the same time Alfa Romeos started to improve while gradually Lancias were stripped of all sportiness and driver appeal. The Delta II was a bit of a failure and the Kappa sold worse than the Thema. In the early noughties Lancia was on the very verge of death, just like now. But the Ypsilon, a car which came from Autobianchi incidentally, saved thanks to its popularity in Italy.

And we arrive at Lancia's current lineup which, Thesis excepted (I'll talk about it later) is a pale shadow of the great days. The cars aren't much more than a posh version of current Fiat's which sell for a premium. Ironically though, that's what has saved Lancia for so long. I don't know if they make money or not, FGA doesn't release the figures for each of their brands, but I'm pretty confident that thanks to being not much more than Fiats they lose a lot less money than Alfa Romeo, which as far as I know has never made any money under Fiat ownership.

The simple fact of the matter is that Lancia and Alfa Romeo are after the same sort of costumer and when you have two brands under the same umbrella that go after the same costumer you know it can't end well. The same happened at BL with Triumph and Rover and there’s a reason why GM is eliminating brands too. Yes, Alfa Romeos might be red and Lancias blue, but both used to represent the same high quality premium driver’s car even if the came from different approach.

Lancia could’ve been saved if Fiat had been bothered as there were some spots of brilliance. The Fulvia concept car was sublime and it would’ve probably erased all of Lancia’s image problems at one stroke, but 6 years after it hasn’t been made yet. And then there’s the Thesis. Even if Lancia survives this will be the last of a line, a future classic. The Thesis is the heir to the great Flaminia Berlinas of the 60’s. And like them it’s not without some problems. It’s a bit overweight, slow and very expensive, but the quality is superb and it’s a very well engineered car with advanced solutions. The styling is controversial, I agree, but I can’t help adoring it. It’s most definitely a proper Lancia.

Arguably it lacks a bit of sportiness, but then again the Flaminia Berlina was never meant to be sporty, although it had other variants to make up for that which the Thesis didn’t. A Daimler executive once said that when it was launched they considered the Thesis the biggest threat to their E-Class, had it been promoted properly. Not the 5 Series, not the A6 but a left field saloon made by those loonies at Lancia. But it doesn’t matter, because that doesn’t make it any less great.

Lancia is one the great ones. Like Saab or Citroën, it has very distinctive treats that set it apart, or rather they used to, from other brands. Lancias always used to be very advanced cars that had the driver in mind. They had the first monocoque, the Lambda in the 20’s, the first production V6 in the 50’s in the Aurelia and the same car sported a transaxle gearbox long before it was made popular by sportscar makers. And yet at the same time they used to be very comfortable cars with superb build quality and very elegant bodies. The Aurelia B20 GT is a classic case in point, elegant, comfortable and a proper driver’s car.

However it seems that these days of globalisation and digital technology there’s not a place for such cars anymore. Everything has to become standardized and has to comply with the same rules, be it legal or moral. A car that tries to stay out of those is labelled as something to avoid. And as such it shows. Saabs have become nothing more than Opel with a much higher price tag. Citroëns quirkiness was gone at the same time Peugeot accountants deemed the hydropneumatic suspension far too complicated and expensive to make sense. Even Subaru’s latest Legacy looks like it could’ve come from Toyota.

All those manufacturers were fighting an uphill battle with one arm tied on the back. And it’s clear who won. Which is all the worse for us.

Lancia, you will be remembered as one of the all time greats. Rest in peace.

[LeonOfTheDead]

Lancia, you will be remembered as one of the all time greats. Rest in peace.

Mainly I agree, depite the fact I think this is just a rumor and that it won't die any time soon.

Also, the Delta is great, no matter if it's an lwb Bravo. It's probably a bit too big for a hacth and too small to be an option as the first car in the family, but it's very well made. And I like it, as I like the Thesis, but that's another story.

About Fiat, Lancia and Alfa Romeo.
Italian background.
At that time Alfa Romeo was owned by IRI, a national energy company which incidentally was also involved in other not very clear deals.
AR was up for sale, as IRI and Italian government had made enough money destroying the brand image, selling cars designed after personal interested and politics involvement.

Ford was very interested and made a good offer for AR.
the only problem being it was going to close one of the AR plants, which was indeed pointless and not remunerative.

Despite that, the deal was almost signed, when Fiat (or better, Senator Agnelli and his whole family trough Cesare Romiti) came out of the blue saying "we buy AR", and the deal was done, sot hat the brand would have kept being Italian and so to have another turnaround of friends pleasing other friends, each with their own income from the deal. Just to keep everything fine, the AR plant couldn't be closed anymore.
No problem they said, and they closed a similar Lancia plant. Also, to show the good intents in buying AR despite Ford having a better offer, they had to invest some money on AR.
Not happy to spend more since the point of the acquisition was to earn/steal more money, they moved Lancia's budget to AR.
And then they studied some good press release so for us to believe there was really something good going on. (I'm personally glad for Alfas in DTM/ITC).

Other than that, money were already disappearing quickly from both Fiat&Lancia and AR, therefore the development of something new and good was generally out of question.
It stayed so until the mk1 Fiat Punto, which was an excellent econobox, but also too little to raise some doubt there was still something good going on. Alfa then released the 156, which was excellent, but again something didn't worked.
In all these years the only good car for Lancia was indeed the Thesis, but the marketing and commercial efforts were too little compared to the engineering one.
The Ypsilon is a very good car, but let's face it, it's juts a stylish and girly Punto MKI/II/III.

About the Fulvia Concept, yes, it was an excellent product and right in time with the retro-style revival. But there weren't money in the piggy, period.
If it wasn't for the GM divorce, Fiat wouldn't have even recovered probably.

[Ferrer]

About the Fulvia Concept, yes, it was an excellent product and right in time with the retro-style revival. But there weren't money in the piggy, period.

Even today the Fulvia could save Lancia.

Do you know why? Because the Fulvia represents exactly what Lancia is. The Fulvia is Lancia. It's a stylish, well made sportscar that combines excellent attention to detail with the attributes of a driver's car. It's not brash or in your face, but a subtle and elegant gran turismo.

Even if Lancia doesn't die, Lancia is been dead for quite some time now.

[LeonOfTheDead]

Even today the Fulvia could save Lancia.

Do you know why? Because the Fulvia represents exactly what Lancia is. The Fulvia is Lancia. It's a stylish, well made sportscar that combines excellent attention to detail with the attributes of a driver's car. It's not brash or in your face, but a subtle and elegant gran turismo.

Even if Lancia doesn't die, Lancia is been dead for quite some time now.

Sure. It would kill cars like the 206/7CC.

But on which platform should it be based?
Perhaps a (heavily) modified Punto's could do the job, but I don't know if the added rear overhang would affect a handling the Abarths showed can be quite good.

And what if people don't care anymore of Lancia?
I'm afraid it could be so. As for Alfas somehow.
They should be just "fashion" and cool, like the new Mini (yes, it's a good ride, but 90% of the owner doesn't care(know).

At that point a Fulvia could be a little sense perhaps if not available with a folding metal top. Oh dear.

[Ferrer]

But on which platform should it be based?
Perhaps a (heavily) modified Punto's could do the job, but I don't know if the added rear overhang would affect a handling the Abarths showed can be quite good

Panda's. It's only 25mm longer than the Brchetta's used in the concept.

At that point a Fulvia could be a little sense perhaps if not available with a folding metal top. Oh dear.

Better death before dishonor.

[Ferrer]

And what if people don't care anymore of Lancia?
I'm afraid it could be so. As for Alfas somehow.
They should be just "fashion" and cool, like the new Mini (yes, it's a good ride, but 90% of the owner doesn't care(know).

That was precisely one of my points.

These days everyone wants some big off roader, or brash shiny grilles. Even sportscars have to be the fastest ever. If they don't they are pointless. It's things like that are killing brands like Lancia, Saab or Subaru. As you say even Alfa Romeo is afected.

We could even discuss if that's just a treat of modern society. We need to have the latest of everything, and it has to be better than our neighbour's because that means we are better than him or her.

[IBrake4Rainbows]

I'm sorry but Lancia's reputation has really never recovered from it's shocking moments of rusting past.

While it's history shows passion and sport luxury intentions, the reality is just a series of weirdly formed vehicles that are destined only to appeal to free thinkers of Italians.

Much like the Italian Version of Saab, I suppose.

I shall mourn it's loss but it was to be inevitable. if it doesn't happen now it will happen soon.