I can't leave this one alone.
I didn't want to hear it? How do you know?
I have only recently learned to appreciate American muscle era cars and used to be very prejudiced against them in a way similar to you were, but now I understand what they are all about.
These cars were quick for their time in a straight line and I don't think anyone claimed they were meant for handling at all. You certainly haven't shocked me with any of this information.
Are you honestly trying to prove to all of us that modern engines are superior in every way?
thanks for the pic, i really like those chargers. i also know someone with a hardtop S600!
the problem with price though... i just find all the hero cars of the Aus market from back then were produced in much smaller numbers thanks to our smaller market i really want a two door torana of some kind, to make it look like an SLR5000, but they just keep rising in price!
as you say, 500hp is a bit unbelievable for cars of such vintage, but then:
i think a lot of the fun is the fact that even relatively 'simple' mods can really start to unleash more power
Andreas Preuninger, Manager of Porsche High Performance Cars: "Grandmas can use paddles. They aren't challenging."
Last edited by harddrivin1le; 02-01-2008 at 07:54 AM.
The car weighs 3,800 pounds (plus driver) and produces 350 SAE Net HP (assuming one can find the right gasoline for it). It has terrible brakes, loose steering, a heavy clutch and handles worse than any modern pick-up truck. Build quality is abysmal and structural rigidity is essentially non-existent.
There is no overdrive transmission and the car itself is loud, hot inside and rattles. The seats are terrible. Fuel economy is worse than what one could expect from a modern, heavy-duty 1 ton V8 pick-up truck.
Objectively speaking, it is a clunker - particularly so by modern performance car standards. The wheel-time I had behind a '70 340 Cuda some years ago confirmed that.
A new, base model Mustang GT, for example, would eat that Hemi Challenger for lunch on any road racing circuit in the world and the Mustang is hardly at the top of today's performance car echelon.
My money would also be on the Mustang on a drag strip - unless the Hemi were super-tuned, fitted with a modern, mandrel bent exhaust system. Then it would be about even.
Last edited by harddrivin1le; 02-01-2008 at 08:02 AM.
in last weeks 'the times' newspaper jay leno drank the water out of the exhaust of a hydrogen-powered BMW 7 series to claim how clean it was. wonder if he's ill yet
That sounds about like what I drive EVERY DAY (see sig). You're right enough about handling, with some caveats (today's cars are way heavier on front-end push than you'd think), although as you probably know...handling doesn't mean much to me, nor do we have the roads around here to take advantage of it if it did. I'd object to the quality part - at least cars back then weren't made out of plastic and don't have ECU's, O2 sensors, throttle position sensors, crank and cam sensors, and mass air sensors to worry about. Working at an auto parts store, THESE are the parts that fail. I'd like to see how many of today's cars are still driving 40 years from now - especially since they're loaded up with all the electric extras which again are a longevity liability. Plus, cars like this don't depreciate like late-models, will never go out of style, and you don't need a PhD. to work on them.
I've had three modern vehicles in a row in as many years, and I put my money where my mouth is - back into a classic car because of these very reasons.
An it harm none, do as ye will
Approximately 79% of statistics are made up.
No, I don't think today's cars "are way heavier on front-end push." This recent "Car and Driver" test of a bone stock 1970 Challenger T/A proves that wasn't the case. And the T/A used a lightweight 340; the hemi was 200 pounds heavier and therefore under-steered even worse.
Specialty File: XV Challenger - The Verdict - Car and Driver - November 2007
"The baddest apple is, by modern standards, the unbelievably sloppy manual steering; it requires nearly six turns lock-to-lock and constant sawing at the wheel to keep the old monster in its lane. Even if the car could corner well, the flat vinyl seats offer as much lateral support as a grandstand bench. The manual brakes need a substantial effort of the foot on the pedal and are pretty much impossible to modulate. Although the ride is commendably supple, the body quivers, the interior rattles, and the rear axle hops over bumps. In its day, the T/A Challenger wasn’t any better or worse than its contemporaries, but in today’s high-finesse mechanical age, it’s a dinosaur, better suited to cruise nights than spirited driving....
The stock [1970 Challenger] T/A, on the exact other hand, under-steered horrendously. Any turn of the wheel simply caused the front tires to plow. Mad provocations of the throttle, which in other rear-drive cars can sometimes flick the tail out, had no effect. It’s as if the goal of the Dodge engineers were to guarantee that this car couldn’t get loose, lest someone tap the gas midcorner and end up fishtailing onto someone else’s lawn. With the unmodified car, you’d simply go straight on in. It gripped about as hard as a jumbo SUV, at 0.68 g."
Old cars WILL eventually depreciate as the generation that aspired to own them dies off.
Last edited by harddrivin1le; 02-01-2008 at 12:11 PM.
The cashed up baby boomers are buying up big on the old Aussie muscle car scene thats for sure. Reliving the past. A lot of the baby boomers look at the old cars through rose coloured glasses. My older brother would love old A9X Torana, his mate has one and they drove up to a race meet. He was banging on how special it was etc. In reality the Liberty GT he owns now would outperform it in all areas but he still yearns for A9X.
Buying an old muscle car is based mainly on emotion nothing else as I see it.
Well he cant make concrete claims yet, we have to wait another 20-30 years as see what happens to the prices then.
I think the genertaion Y ? will get given these cars by their father/grandfathers when they die and wont see what all the fuss is about. The people that are paying huge money for these cars are buying these cars on emotion as it was part of their youth they are buying back so to speak.
In saying that if a decent RT E49 was given to me I would be a very happy boy
SA IPRA cars 15, 25, 51 & 77
Sharperto Racing IP Corollas
http://www.sharperto.com.au/
Ironically, the current issue of "Hemmings Muscle Machines" has an article on a 1970 Dodge Charger R/T SE with 426-Hemi.
The owner says the engine was rebuilt 20 years ago, and going by the text and the photos, the only modification I can see is headers. and the 3" Flowmaster exhaust. It was over-the-counter headers which Chrysler marketed as the Hustle Stuff banner. In the graph I posted, it has a dyno reading of 460 hp @ 5700 rpm.
Anyway, the car runs a very good 12.77 sec @ 111 mph 1/4 mile. Fuel mileage is 11 mpg (average, I suppose).
I think Jay was exaggerating the "5 mpg." I have the article Jay mentions and the mileage on their test Challenger was 7-12 mpg.
I am also wondering why Jay mentions a "6.2 second" 0-60; the Car and Driver test car got 5.8. Unless it is Jay's own car which got that time which is certainly within the expected range.
The owners says that this is the only Hemi car he's owned that starts at the first turn of the key, no matter how long it's been sitting.
'76 Cadillac Fleetwood Seventy-Five Limousine, '95 Lincoln Town Car.
Here is the chart...
'76 Cadillac Fleetwood Seventy-Five Limousine, '95 Lincoln Town Car.
Thanks for the info fleet. My buddy was trying to find out 0-60 mph times for the Hemi Challenger with no luck.
Do any of your old magazines have Muscle Car era contemporary Ferraris such as the 275, 330 and 365? I would be interested in seeing what they do the 0-60 mph and 1/4 mile in.
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