Report: VW wants to buy Alfa Romeo

[Ferrer]

From an enthusiast point of view the way VW manages its expensive car manufacturers is hateful indeed. Fortunately the didn't have much to do with the Murcielago since its just a reworked Diablo and they didn't **** up the Mulsanne by basically leaving it alone.

Everything else is an awful lump of coldness, clinicalness, technology, some stupid four wheel drive and germanness. Please continue to make Volkswagens and leave the rest of the world alone.

Thank you.

[LeonOfTheDead]

AFAIK Audi forced Lamborghini to redesign the Diablo's replacement, otherwise known as the Zagato Kanto (codename P147), which was already being tested since 1998 iirc.
That was "just" an heavily updated Diablo.
There was a future for Lamborghini, but we'll never know how long/good it would have been.

The Murcielago, especially the mk1, has a terrible quality tbh, and its sales are far from being awesome. The only reason why they sale "so many" cars is the Gallardo, love it or hate it. Besides, they couldn't have built more cars because the factory was already at its top capacity or thereabouts.

Last but not least, Lamborghini already abandoned the rwd layout with the last restyling of the Diablo, and as far as I can remember their VT awd system wasn't bad at all, meaning it was still carrying over a lot of its original "rwd DNA".

Can't remember atm if the Kanto P147 would have been available as an rwd model too.

[Commodore GS/E]

If Audi wouldn't have bought it, Lambo wouldn't have survived very long. The Kanto was in development, yes, but they didn't have enough money to push it further (their owners were hit hard by the asian financial crisis of the time). They would have been left with the Diablo, and sooner or later they would have gone bust. I don't know much about their awd system, to be honest (do you have any useful link for me? I'm always interested in learning more ), but as i already said, Lamborghini didn't have any financial support before Audi came. They couldn't have done it alone in my eyes.

To come back to the sales: yes, i know that Lambo has a maximal capacity which is rather small, but if you look at their sales, you will see that (even if it isn't their best selling model) the Murcielago is already a better seller than the Diablo. And from what i know, the brand continuously produces nore cars per year than before the Audi period.

Again, i don't want to defend Audi, but they really saved Lamborghini in 1998.

[Kitdy]

From an enthusiast point of view the way VW manages its expensive car manufacturers is hateful indeed. Fortunately the didn't have much to do with the Murcielago since its just a reworked Diablo and they didn't **** up the Mulsanne by basically leaving it alone.

Everything else is an awful lump of coldness, clinicalness, technology, some stupid four wheel drive and germanness. Please continue to make Volkswagens and leave the rest of the world alone.

Thank you.

I fear for Porsche.

[Rizaven]

The thought of German Mechanicals and Italian styling sounds tempting, Like everybody else I have my reservations. As long as the Italians still run the show and the Germans doesn't interfere too much it could work. Nobody has made multi branding properly. The closest is the General when they allowed Pontiac to advertise themselves as the we build excitement" division much to the consternation of Chevy. Probably why Pontiac went instead of Buick.

As for Alfa, the Brera with a TT drivetrain, maybe. As long as it looks, feel, and sound like an Alfa and they bring it to the U.S. I might get on board.

[LeonOfTheDead]

If Audi wouldn't have bought it, Lambo wouldn't have survived very long. The Kanto was in development, yes, but they didn't have enough money to push it further (their owners were hit hard by the asian financial crisis of the time). They would have been left with the Diablo, and sooner or later they would have gone bust. I don't know much about their awd system, to be honest (do you have any useful link for me? I'm always interested in learning more ), but as i already said, Lamborghini didn't have any financial support before Audi came. They couldn't have done it alone in my eyes.

To come back to the sales: yes, i know that Lambo has a maximal capacity which is rather small, but if you look at their sales, you will see that (even if it isn't their best selling model) the Murcielago is already a better seller than the Diablo. And from what i know, the brand continuously produces nore cars per year than before the Audi period.

Again, i don't want to defend Audi, but they really saved Lamborghini in 1998.

Will see if I can find something on their awd system.
Meanwhile, sales! Divided into financial years, official figures:

2006: 2.087 cars (952 in first 6 months) (876 in North America) (786 in Europe) (305 in Asia)
2007: 2.406 cars (1.239 in first 6 months) (second best year ever) (1001 in North America, 930 States) (959 in Europe) (360 in Asia)
2008: 2.430 cars (best year ever) (1.309 in first 6 months) (741 States, 430 in first 6 months)) (local sales were provided only for Countries with increased figures, like Italy, from 209 to 230 cars)
2009: 1.515 cars (825 cars in first 6 months) (207 cars in the States in first 6 months) (no further data)
2010: 674 cars in first 6 months

End of 2007: 3000th Murciélago produced
Beginning of 2010: 4000th M. produced
Couldn't find any data regarding when the 1.000th or 2.000 units were produced, but considering the car was unveiled in 2001, it looks like a pretty constant path, 500-ish car each year.
Possibly it was the Gallardo (despite being just renewed) that slowed down so much sales in 2009.

[IBrake4Rainbows]

I meant buyers weren't as pleased to enter a Lambo's dealer in Munich but to deal with the one from Milan. Stupid foreign language.

I sort of understand. but I don't get how dealing with a dealership in the country you bought it in is any worse. Whatever, I'm not that bright

Honestly the GranTurismo was/is well acclaimed in Europe, as far as I perceived it.
Considered as a real, well, grand touring car it is possibly less flashy than a California (which is quite more expensive) or less catchy and declaratively sporty than the XK.

Fifth Gear ripped it apart IIRC (though that was Jason Potato, so I'll take that with a grain of salt).

Most reports I've read regard it highly, but say the others do it better.

I personally think the Quattroporte was a car with no competition untile the Panamera and Rapide arrived, and now it is basically a 6 years old project based on 10/15 years old stuff.

You were correct, but these days it's the grandad of the class and is in desperate need of a refresh to maintain it's name. The others don't have the illustrious history of the Quattroporte that it can draw on.

The GranTurismo has a similar problem, old chassis, older engine. Not that buyers may know that, but it influences some of its aspects (like the weight or the fact that it is now underpowered compared to the competition) and even more journalists' reviews.

It's an old way of building cars that has been superceded thanks to the stupid amount of investment in the market over the past few years. They've just been left behind.

With the new QP they will definitely be selling a Ferrari sedan though, given it will eventually get a Ferrari-based chassis as well.

Can you imagine the indignation of a Four door Ferrari. I hope it fails, miserably.

Not sure how that influenced the design of the 612.
Given you have: a smaller sedan in the pipeline (the supposed M5 competitor), the QP and the 612, you may expect the 612 to be more sporty (given also the 599 should be extremer in the future) and the QP to be more expensive. Just a guess.

Overdiversification I suggest. the 612 is capable but butt ugly, the QP serves the market without sullying the Ferrari name, the smaller sedan doesn't sound like a wise move to me.

BTW, in 2008 Laborghini released the new Gallardo (both Coupe and Spyder), while the Murcielago was already aging. I think they actually suffered the global economy more than other companies, even if also Maserati and Porsche felt the pinch.

Lamborghinis are more of a showy purchase than a Porsche or Ferrari, more risky. it's likely those people were the first to be hit by dodgy business deals.

From an enthusiast point of view the way VW manages its expensive car manufacturers is hateful indeed. Fortunately the didn't have much to do with the Murcielago since its just a reworked Diablo and they didn't **** up the Mulsanne by basically leaving it alone.

It's been previously mentioned but they've had to fiddle with Murcielago and Gallardo rather heavily before they were sent to market in a way that was appropriate for their controls.The manufacturers seem to have a little autonomy with existing platforms, which could explain the Mulsanne.

Everything else is an awful lump of coldness, clinicalness, technology, some stupid four wheel drive and germanness. Please continue to make Volkswagens and leave the rest of the world alone.

While I agree that there is a certain clinical element to the way they do business, it's effective and it has maintained the survival of two brands - Bentley and Lamborghini - that without their assistance would have long since folded into history.

I get a bit sick of the German bashing. Simply put, they know their s**t, they make money doing it, and despite appearance, find passion in the detail. RWD is a valid complaint, certainly, but beyond that it's a foolish proposition to consider making cars in the manner of 20 years ago - hell, even 10 years ago - to be appropriate for the modern world. Morgan excepted but hell, they're an entity unto themselves.

The Gallardo is an epic bit of kit and rather than suffering under German rule I suspect the Italians are relishing the stable backing and infinite resources such an organisation offers them. lets hope we get to see their full potential realised.

[Ferrer]

I fear for Porsche.

What could be worse than the Cayenne? Maybe they want to erase rear wheel drive there as well...

While I agree that there is a certain clinical element to the way they do business, it's effective and it has maintained the survival of two brands - Bentley and Lamborghini - that without their assistance would have long since folded into history.

I get a bit sick of the German bashing. Simply put, they know their s**t, they make money doing it, and despite appearance, find passion in the detail. RWD is a valid complaint, certainly, but beyond that it's a foolish proposition to consider making cars in the manner of 20 years ago - hell, even 10 years ago - to be appropriate for the modern world. Morgan excepted but hell, they're an entity unto themselves.

The Gallardo is an epic bit of kit and rather than suffering under German rule I suspect the Italians are relishing the stable backing and infinite resources such an organisation offers them. lets hope we get to see their full potential realised.

There's a little dent in your otherwise competent argument. It's Rolls-Royce and BMW. There's a proper german way of running a bussiness without ruining it for everyone else.

[IBrake4Rainbows]

Theres another small dent which was Rover.

Small dent in your rebuttal - Thats not the VW group.

BMW is/was an engineering based company who recognised the true value of their asset in Rolls Royce and were smart enough to leave well enough alone, but we've still ended up with the Ghost, which is (more than, but still related to) a nicely tarted 7 series, haven't we?

[Ferrer]

Well I guess even BMW isn't perfect in managing their brands, and the Ghost was something to be except, but somewhat it is as evident as the Continental which is little more than a turbocharged Phaeton.

I guess the VW Group just can't help themselves. It must be the only way the know to do business.

[IBrake4Rainbows]

It makes utter economic sense to wring out as much as you can from every engine, platform and part that you can, thats how they make money.

In the end does it matter if the oil cap on a Bentley is the same as a Passat?

[Ferrer]

I don't care about the oil cap.

I'm far more interested in the W12 engine and the four wheel drive system.

[IBrake4Rainbows]

Thats the sort of stuff they'd get down to though. The W12 is a piece of tech they'd spent a lot of money and time on in a useless quest for prestige. May as well give it to a brand that didn't need to work on prestige at all...

[Commodore GS/E]

Thats the sort of stuff they'd get down to though. The W12 is a piece of tech they'd spent a lot of money and time on in a useless quest for prestige. May as well give it to a brand that didn't need to work on prestige at all...

VW only stuffed it into the Bentleys because the Phaethon was such a big pile of fail. Normally, the Phaethon W12's sales would have made the new W12 engine a rentable development, but without them, VW had only two choices: putting it in other cars or admit that the development of the W12 was a wrong decision.

[IBrake4Rainbows]

And when Piech was involved that was never going to happen.

Still, it's a technical marvel and it's the latest in a long line of engines that have been designed for failed or cancelled cars and end up elsewhere