A little bit of maths

[fpv_gtho]

yeah i know we're agreeing with each other, im just strengthening the argument as much as i can.

last i heard, japans limit was 276hp/280ps/206kw, yet theres still the EVO8 lancer sitting at 202kw and the WRX STI at 195kw

[NoOne]

Back in the early '70's American car manufacturers were getting a bad rep from insurance companies about the HP figures for the cars, so to get around it they posted HP figures at a certain RPM, IE: Chrysler 426 cid Hemi rated at 425 HP at 4500 RPM actually made closer to 500+ at 5800 RPM, it did in fact make 425HP at that RPM... but that doesn't mean it was the "peak" HP.
Ford and GM also did this, I'm not sure who started the trend though. Could it be possible that Japanese manufacturers are adopting a similar "half-truth"?

[fpv_gtho]

well the r34 quotes power at the same revs as the R32 i think but with a higher torque figure at a higher rev

[Nildo]

Crisis, you are right, it is near impossible to get an exact reading. Why do you think people can't just show up at Summernats HP heroes and wave a dynograph for their car. Beacuse they need to be on equal footing! That's also why there were boost restrictions, fuel rules and so on. For each individual car, the crucial aspect to performance is wheel power, but for the sake of direct comparisions engine figures must be quoted as they can be determined with a little less fuss for a manufacturer.

Also FPV the GTR produces well over 206 kw. The R32 produces a claimed 206 kw. Then the R34 is aslo claimed at the same figure. Yet peak torque had risen by 39 nm, and at 500 rpm higher! Most engine dyno's place the standard R34 at about 230-240 kw, with the N1 being, as you spotted, a greater still. And they have no problem murdering a GTS.

[fpv_gtho]

well so far the japanese government is turning somewhat of a blind eye to it all and just paying attention to whos claiming more than 206kw but in the next coupe of years, with the R35, new RX-7, possible new supra, new NSX all set to aim for 300kw (250 for the RX-7) the japanese government is going to have a heart attack

[Nildo]

The power cap was never actually a law though, just an agreement between the manufacturers and the government. I think that the Japanese government probably realises now that to remain competitive in the automotive industry they need to raise the stakes somewhat. 206 kw was plenty in an r32 GTR but these days you plain and simple need more.

[HoldenHFV6]

Each car company has their own standard for measuring how much power a car has. There are 5 main standards that are used world wide. These are:

EEC: European standard. Measure at 99kPa and 25°C. Rated in kW.
SAE: American standard. Measure at 99kPa and 25°C. Rated in hp. 1kW = 1.341hp (SAE).
DIN: German standard. Measure at 101.3kPa and 20°C. Rated in hp (ps). 1kW = 1.360hp (DIN).
JIS: Japanese standard. Theoretically same as DIN, but we always find it is actually smaller.
British horsepower: same as SAE. Rated in bhp (could be confused with brake horse power).


Holden uses the EEC standard whereas Ford uses the DIN standard. You can see that ford tests are conducted under a richer (ie more dense) air flow.
In other words, you can't really take figures from a manufacture and compare them. For examples, the HSV R8 has 285Kw but that is equal to 292 Kw DIN. So does that mean that the R8 is more powerful than the 290Kw FPV? As the others have been saying, put them against each other on the same Dyno in the same conditions.

[Egg Nog]

Each car company has their own standard for measuring how much power a car has. There are 5 main standards that are used world wide...........

Awesome post, and thanks for clearing all of this up. +1 reputation for you

[HoldenHFV6]

Sorry made a mistake. It's not EEC but ECE (European Commision for Europe).
It may also be of interest that Holden uses ECE standard for local products but uses the SAE standard for American products (The GTO). The key difference lies in that ECE includes the parasitic losses from the power steering pump and alternator while SAE doesn't. Holden does not use DIN because it believes the exclusion of relative humidity of air make results unrealistic.

[Nildo]

Motor magazine did do a dyno (same day, same conditions) test between 6 models of V8 holdens and the ford XR8, XR6 T and GT. I don't know if you saw that. It was before the advent of the 285 clubsport, but the Falcon on the day outdid the GTS, with 222 rear wheel kilowatts to the GT's 225. The GT won the day over all the Gen III's. For comparisons sake, the worst of the lot was the caprice, with (despite having 245 kw claimed at the flywheel) only 156 kw. Pretty ordinary for all that cash, huh?

[fpv_gtho]

well in all honesty there were some flaws in that test, i think it was between the equally powerful SV8, SS and CV8 that they got 2 power readings so perhaps something affected the GTS and GT's power outputs as well

[Nildo]

Actualy FPV I don't think so. There are anomalies in dyno testing which means that two runs in the same car, all other things been equal will always yield a minor difference in figures. Also remember that different cars do put out marginally different outputs regardless of having the same engine. Some are simply better built.
Also bear in mind that the Falcon may have a better driveline, reducing losses and increasing power at the wheels.

[crisis]

Each car company has their own standard for measuring how much power a car has. There are 5 main standards that are used world wide.

Brilliant! A factual conclusion to a subject that has caused much conjecture. Reputation points are clearly in order.

[crisis]

One reason mass produced cars will give varying results is because they are mass produced. I beleive a blue printed motor should almost always give a consistant result.

[fpv_gtho]

Actualy FPV I don't think so. There are anomalies in dyno testing which means that two runs in the same car, all other things been equal will always yield a minor difference in figures. Also remember that different cars do put out marginally different outputs regardless of having the same engine. Some are simply better built.
Also bear in mind that the Falcon may have a better driveline, reducing losses and increasing power at the wheels.

well perhaps because the BOSS290 is hand built its helping its cause