German cars VS American cars

[Fleet 500]

oh about 450 milllion of us do

Oh, I didn't realize that 450 million Europeans can afford a $100,000 Mercedes or $200,000 Ferrari.

[Fleet 500]

oh please don’t make me start with American car... The crown Victoria ahahahah... the cops took Ford to court because the car was unsafe, too many police officers lost there life’s in it... the car would ignite like a troche after it sustained a blow from the rear.. and the beetle 1930's designee.. so u cant really blame it.. after all what car that year for that price had heating?????

Yeah, I heard about that. Wasn't it something like a total of 6 killed? How many have been killed driving a kiddie-car like a Beetle. How many would have still been alive if they were driving a big (or mid-sized) American car?

I would rather have no heat than breathe fumes along with warm air.

[fpv_gtho]

so now big+american=safe?

[Coventrysucks]

The Ford GT hitting 62 mph in 3.3 seconds. I think that is BS. The Konigsegg CCR has 806 bhp, weighs less than a McLaren F1 yet only manages 0-62 mph in 3.2 seconds. I don't think the GT with 500 bhp is going to hit 62 mph in 3.3 seconds. The new TVR Typhon has 580 bhp and weighs much less but TVR are claiming a 3.5 second 0-62 mph time. Plus, in all the Mags I have read, 0-62 times for the GT are around 3.8 seconds.

Things that govern acceleration:
Gearing
How short is first gear? Is there a need to change gear before you get to 60?

Traction
How much grip do the tyres provide? Can the car launch quickly without wheelspin?

If you saw the CL65 on Top Gear last week you'll understand Power is nothing without control.

[Coventrysucks]

Yeah, I heard about that. Wasn't it something like a total of 6 killed? How many have been killed driving a kiddie-car like a Beetle. How many would have still been alive if they were driving a big (or mid-sized) American car?

I would rather have no heat than breathe fumes along with warm air.

Wow, you're sharp.

Lets compare the safety of a car built to an extreme budget by Nazis in the late 1930's with a modern Ford sedan built to 1990's safety standards.

[Fleet 500]

Lets compare the safety of a car built to an extreme budget by Nazis in the late 1930's with a modern Ford sedan built to 1990's safety standards.

Well, there's no reason to compare. Those in the U.S. back in the '40s and '50s with common sense avoided buying VWs and instead stayed with big American cars!
Besides, the VWs (and other selected imports) were so slow they had another danger factor. Did you know that the top speed of a '70 VW Bus is 65 mph? And that it took an agonizingly long 44 seconds to 60 mph from a dead stop? Or a late '60s Karmann Ghia had a top speed of 80 mph (wow!) and a 30-second 0-60 mph. time? Or check these specs of a '61 VW Bus (from Car Life, Sept., 1961):
Engine........... 72.7 cu in
Horsepower.... 40
Torque.......... 64
Axle ratio....... 5.13:1
Weight.......... 2,310 lbs
0-30 mph....... 8.3 secs.
0-40 mph....... 14.1
0-50 mph....... 26.8
1/4 mile......... 25.6 sec @ 49 mph
Top speed..... 60 mph, est (best timed run- 59 mph)

Luckily, I don't see many of these vehicles on the roads anymore, but when there were more around years ago, everytime I saw one in front of me, I always changed lanes right away because I did not feel like taking 20 minutes to go up a grade!

[Fleet 500]

so now big+american=safe?

You got it!

[Fleet 500]

Not all American cars are crap, however...

A significant number of cars designed for the American market are built to a budget, and this shows in their general build quality.

Nearly all German cars are very well built, even the cheaper stuff from VW is tightly screwed together, with good quality materials.

I would say that the interior of a new VW Polo is significantly better in terms of quality and materials than a Jeep Grand Cherokee, which costs 3x as much.

We don't get many American cars over here, but the few that do are an embarresment to your country.

The Cheverolet Blazer, huge, thirsty - no one wanted one
The Chrysler Neon was widely regarded as the worst car in its segment
The Chrysler Voyager does surprisingly well, because it is big, and cheap.
The PT Cruiser got off to a good start, but it has fallen behind the similar cars from the European manufacturers which are light years better.
I think they sold about 5 Chrysler Sebrings.
The Cadillac STS was laughable.
Jeep are quite popular, but take a small %age of the market share.

Most US cars are defeated in road tests by three main points
1) Handling - European cars can easily cope with the narrow, undulating, winding roads that cross the UK
American cars tend to sort of flop and bounce everywhere, fine for the long, straight, flat highways, but here they just tend to induce sea sickness.

2) Engines - Large displacement engines, with fuel consumption usually less than similar cars from Europe, that offer less power and driveability than equivilant. A word that frequently crops up is "refinement", usually accompanied by "lack of".

3) General build quality - as mentioned above.

Well, it looks like us American car enthusiasts have the last laugh. (Note- I am referring to '50s-'70s cars.) What used to be considered in 1980 a "gas-guzzling, *low build-quality*, impractical" U.S. muscle cars are now selling for prices only exotic European cars were getting. Here are a few samples from the Jan., 2004 Hemmings...

'69 Dodge Dart Swinger, 340, 3.23 gears, sure-grip, blue w/white stripe, $22,995 (Can anyone imagine a Dart selling for that much in 1980? Probably because they were well-built, powerful and fun to drive.)

'69 Dodge Super Bee, 383, 4-speed, white on white, $25,000

'70 Plymouth AAR 'Cuda, 340-6 bbl, red, $39,000

'70 Plymouth 'Cuda, 440-6 bbl engine/trans rebuilt, black, no rust, $59,900

'71 Buick GS 455, 2-door htp, 52,000 miles, $29,900

'67 Chevy Chevelle, 396/325, 4-speed, console, $26,500

'69 Shelby Cobra GT Fastback, 95,787 miles, original, unrestored, red, gold stripes, black interior, factory 4-speed, $55,000

'69 Pontiac GTO Judge Convertible, one of 108 made, 400 Ram Air III engine, 4-speed, red with black interior, $120,000

I think people now realize that cars of this era were actually solidly built and usually lasted a long time. Which is impressive considering that hundreds of thousands of, for instance, Mustangs and Camaros were built, and the fact that many of these were street-raced.

As I said, this is different than comparing to late-model cars. However, most people by now have heard of Consumer Reports now ranking overall reliability of U.S. cars as slightly better than European cars.

[Matra et Alpine]

Oh, I didn't realize that 450 million Europeans can afford a $100,000 Mercedes or $200,000 Ferrari.

I had taken the mention of the BMW as one example.

The USA only gets to see about 10% of the cars produced for and by the European market. It's unreasonable in car comparisons across the regions to only ocunt the ones you can get in one region. For example the Japanese made fatastic little sports cars for the Japanese market only that few people new about until some Brits dtarted bringing them in. Hona Beat and Suzuki Capucino ( esp the turbo'ed ) are great fun cars with excellent handling for the same price as a mundae family car.

In comparing cars it's important to look beyond the national restrictions - unless of course the comparison is specifically limited eg supercars in N.A.

[Matra et Alpine]

Well, there's no reason to compare. Those in the U.S. back in the '40s and '50s with common sense avoided buying VWs and instead stayed with big American cars!
Besides, the VWs (and other selected imports) were so slow they had another danger factor. Did you know that the top speed of a '70 VW Bus is 65 mph?.. lots of other speed-related stuff deleted ...

With a national speed limit of 55 on the best highways how was this important ?

[Matra et Alpine]

Well, it looks like us American car enthusiasts have the last laugh. (Note- I am referring to '50s-'70s cars.) ....As I said, this is different than comparing to late-model cars. However, most people by now have heard of Consumer Reports now ranking overall reliability of U.S. cars as slightly better than European cars.

In Europe you can barely GIVE away an americ V8 car from that era.

You should open up to recongise that if you take nationalist views you have nationalistic answers.

You didn't get many of the great cars from that era that we enjoy.

We have quite a few American cars from that era - especially up my way.
Holy Loch employed about 5000 US personnel at it's peak and they all imported big LHD V8s to drive You can get them for a fraction of a similar aged Fiat, Alfa, Alpine, Jaguar, MG etc etc.

But that isn't a comparison that makes much sense. Old cars are worth less because they are SO expensive to maintain. We've lots of parts for 50-70s European cars. YOU have lots of parts for 50-70s US cars. And it's not too hard to undeerstand why.

So if it was at all to be reasonable you'd need to take the mean of US cars sold in Europe and US and the mean of European cars sold in Europe and US. But that just gets silly and needs Misho to come up with a Misho2 rating.
Not worth the effort.

There were good and bad cars produced by everyone in the timeframe.

BUT the *general* trend was for the US to be heavy, big engines, power, gas users. Europe *general* tredn was for lightweight, balanced-engineering and frugal. In terms of accidents each in their own environment was safe.

Taking each OUT of it's own environment wasn't as safe. US cars ended up in ditches and lochs all round the west coast

But toi belief one had some mighty betterment than another is false comparison. I rally and MGB GT, it is NOT the car to drive for more than 2-3 hours without a break. US cars were buitol from the late 20s onwards to drive 5-6 hours on straight flat roads.

Comparing them without taking this into account just ends up with lots of caveats and explanations. Which is unlikely to change anyoneees point of view if they've not experienced the alternative !!!

[Coventrysucks]

Well, it looks like us American car enthusiasts have the last laugh. (Note- I am referring to '50s-'70s cars.) What used to be considered in 1980 a "gas-guzzling, *low build-quality*, impractical" U.S. muscle cars are now selling for prices only exotic European cars were getting. Here are a few samples from the Jan., 2004 Hemmings...

'69 Dodge Dart Swinger, 340, 3.23 gears, sure-grip, blue w/white stripe, $22,995 (Can anyone imagine a Dart selling for that much in 1980? Probably because they were well-built, powerful and fun to drive.)

'69 Dodge Super Bee, 383, 4-speed, white on white, $25,000

'70 Plymouth AAR 'Cuda, 340-6 bbl, red, $39,000

'70 Plymouth 'Cuda, 440-6 bbl engine/trans rebuilt, black, no rust, $59,900

'71 Buick GS 455, 2-door htp, 52,000 miles, $29,900

'67 Chevy Chevelle, 396/325, 4-speed, console, $26,500

'69 Shelby Cobra GT Fastback, 95,787 miles, original, unrestored, red, gold stripes, black interior, factory 4-speed, $55,000

'69 Pontiac GTO Judge Convertible, one of 108 made, 400 Ram Air III engine, 4-speed, red with black interior, $120,000

I think people now realize that cars of this era were actually solidly built and usually lasted a long time. Which is impressive considering that hundreds of thousands of, for instance, Mustangs and Camaros were built, and the fact that many of these were street-raced.

As I said, this is different than comparing to late-model cars. However, most people by now have heard of Consumer Reports now ranking overall reliability of U.S. cars as slightly better than European cars.

Why are you posting that as if it is some sort of reply to what I said?

Me: Modern American cars suffer for being built to a budget, and therefore usually lack in terms of quality compared to European cars

You: American cars from '50s- '70s are quite expensive

I really don't see any connection.

[Fleet 500]

With a national speed limit of 55 on the best highways how was this important ?

The 55 mph. speed limit did not occur until 1974. The cars I listed were made (and on the road) before then. Up until that year, the national speed limit was 65 mph, some states allowed 70 and 75 in outlying areas, and the state of Nevada had no speed limit in the rural areas.

Also, the "55 mph" limit was widely ignored. The average speed on the highway was about 65 mph. during the "55" era; before then, it was about 70-75 mph.

And, when some of those cars (like the VWs) hit an uphill incline, you can bet they slowed down considerably.

[Coventrysucks]

Or check these specs of a '61 VW Bus (from Car Life, Sept., 1961):
Engine........... 72.7 cu in
Horsepower.... 40
Torque.......... 64
Axle ratio....... 5.13:1
Weight.......... 2,310 lbs
0-30 mph....... 8.3 secs.
0-40 mph....... 14.1
0-50 mph....... 26.8
1/4 mile......... 25.6 sec @ 49 mph
Top speed..... 60 mph, est (best timed run- 59 mph)

So now your telling me that a van with 40bhp might be SLOW!

Gee wiz, I couldn't have worked that one out by myself...


Your arguments are rubbish.

[Fleet 500]

Me: Modern American cars suffer for being built to a budget, and therefore usually lack in terms of quality compared to European cars

You: American cars from '50s- '70s are quite expensive

I really don't see any connection.

Me: American cars (both modern and classic) are underrated.

Me: European and Japanese cars are overrated.