Who possesses more technology?

[Matra et Alpine]

what a car would be if it were conceived and produced for the first time nowadays. I certainly don't think it would use an archaic ol' internal combustion engine.

For the weight, space and safety the IC engine would be re-invented for your mythical 'todays' car.
Electric's not there yet, too big to store power and limited battery life
Petrol is the best compromise between energy per Kg/liter carried and safety.
Bio-fuels are expensive to treat for to match petrol.
Ethanols explode easily, hydrogen cells are bombs waiting to go off. Before they'll bring benefits they havce to find a safer way and bring down packaging weights.
Solar won't work in Scotland
So given we'd all want fast, then petrol it is.
Unless of course you think todays 'new' car we'd accept 0-60 in 30 seconds and 40mph max speeds.
Think we won't push the power source to it's limits ? We used to rally with AVGAS in the Audis - shh

[Falcon500]

Well its common to see really powerful v8s here quite illegaly mind you running avgas
Solar cars work here single seat areodynamic shell with no sotrage space and can only run 100km/h stuff that for a joke!
The semi diesel idea is gaining some ground here people wanting truckers to run bio diesel. I asked about the semi Diesel idea and i was told somthing like the Lanz Bulldog tractors you can run anything with a flash point in them vegtable oil,turps,whisky....mind you all with varing rates of sucsess frommy understanding like a diesel with a spark plug.
And them hybred cars my gawd their ugly and not to mention slow...and i thoughtmy sunny was all of the above.

[Batmobile_Turbo]

I just thought of something, the reason why the Japanses car makers don't come up with very many ideas for inventing technologies for varying weather climates and rugged terain is because Japan is crowded and there is no need for the invention of more efficient V8s for towing on an Albertan farm, or optimized handling for carving throught the alps because the things that Japan comes up with like hybrids and VORTEC engines are for fuel efficiency and compactness for Tokyo and other large citys. there are of course places to drive fast and things that need towing but the most important thing is in-city transportation.

i hope i'm merely bringing this point to mind for everyone and not thinking of it origionally, because that would make me a genious

[Batmobile_Turbo]

With the development of valves opened by solenoids and other technologies, I really begin to question the idea of the internal combustion engine itself. The thing is, engines used to day still operate on the same principles as Nick Otto's original 4-stroke. Sure, there have been improvements, but everything else in the world sure has come a lot farther over the past 100+ years...

It kinda makes you wonder what a car would be if it were conceived and produced for the first time nowadays. I certainly don't think it would use an archaic ol' internal combustion engine.

Anyway, applicable hydrogen fuel cells are just around the corner...

as for the fuel cell cars, it would be good to reuse the hydrogen in the water that those cars produce but they can't so far, I think that fuel cells are a little farther off than around the corner but still close.
I don't think that internal combustion is really that archaic, there are things that haven't even been thought up or applied to do with internal combustion. I sort of feel that a four stroke internal-combustion is a bit archaic though, wankel rotarys are much more futuristic,also deisels because you can use a fuel not made from oil. hmm maybe a rotary deisel

[Egg Nog]

as for the fuel cell cars, it would be good to reuse the hydrogen in the water that those cars produce but they can't so far, I think that fuel cells are a little farther off than around the corner but still close.
I don't think that internal combustion is really that archaic, there are things that haven't even been thought up or applied to do with internal combustion. I sort of feel that a four stroke internal-combustion is a bit archaic though, wankel rotarys are much more futuristic,also deisels because you can use a fuel not made from oil. hmm maybe a rotary deisel

Well, the thing is, if we're trying ot find advancements, the rotary isn't any more of a success than pistons have ever been. Once all is said, we're still just burning a bunch of refined stuff that we found in the ground. The system itself is ancient.

I really like the idea of Biodiesel and all of the other techs, but we should be supporting hytdrogen more than anything else. For now, the real issue that needs to be addressed is how to produce it in a "green" way in large quantities.

[Batmobile_Turbo]

Well, the thing is, if we're trying ot find advancements, the rotary isn't any more of a success than pistons have ever been. Once all is said, we're still just burning a bunch of refined stuff that we found in the ground. The system itself is ancient.

I really like the idea of Biodiesel and all of the other techs, but we should be supporting hytdrogen more than anything else. For now, the real issue that needs to be addressed is how to produce it in a "green" way in large quantities.

what it all comes down to is the huge oil industry, people don't want to make the change because it would put millions out of jobs. I think if they put all the oil money into converting gas stations into hydrogen stations and the car companys started to make hydrogen cars, then hydrogen cars would be even closer then ten years from now which is he projected time. but people want money instead of world improvement.

[Matra et Alpine]

...put all the oil money into converting gas stations into hydrogen stations and the car companys started to make hydrogen cars, then hydrogen cars would be even closer then ten years from now which is he projected time. but people want money instead of world improvement.

I think we've had years of talking abotu hydrogen cars and will continue to have that for one simple reason ....

HINDENBURG !!

Think, today, do you want a HYDROGEN tank at the end of your road knowing that if it went up it would take out a few blocks. It's MUCH more volatile than petrol or diesel !!

The manufacturers ( and politicians ) will have an uphill struggle getting the man in the street to accept the safety of hydrogen whilst the memory of the Hindenburg exists. Not many decades to go now

( for the 'youngsters' - it was 1937 New Jersey and a Hydrogen filled airship.
Burst into flames and total destruction - http://www.netcologne.de/~nc-lunkwii...ie/hinden.mpeg
This ended hydrogen dirigibles. Don't panic -- the one above you at your NFL game is now HELIUM filled )

[crisis]

I asked about the semi Diesel idea and i was told somthing like the Lanz Bulldog tractors you can run anything with a flash point in them vegtable oil,turps,whisky

I' ll rmember that when petrol reaches $35 a litre.

[crisis]

I think we've had years of talking abotu hydrogen cars and will continue to have that for one simple reason ....

HINDENBURG !!

Just the thought of carefully reversing into a park, the bumper gently kisses the parking meter behind and you and then.......BANG!, you explode into an orange ball of flame. Oh the humanity!

[Batmobile_Turbo]

I think we've had years of talking abotu hydrogen cars and will continue to have that for one simple reason ....

HINDENBURG !!

Think, today, do you want a HYDROGEN tank at the end of your road knowing that if it went up it would take out a few blocks. It's MUCH more volatile than petrol or diesel !!

The manufacturers ( and politicians ) will have an uphill struggle getting the man in the street to accept the safety of hydrogen whilst the memory of the Hindenburg exists. Not many decades to go now

( for the 'youngsters' - it was 1937 New Jersey and a Hydrogen filled airship.
Burst into flames and total destruction - http://www.netcologne.de/~nc-lunkwii...ie/hinden.mpeg
This ended hydrogen dirigibles. Don't panic -- the one above you at your NFL game is now HELIUM filled )

i think they use liquid hydrogen though, it it just as volitile? also, i didn't know that the hindenburg was in New Jersey, I thought it was a Nazi airship that exploded in Germany

[Matra et Alpine]

Just the thought of carefully reversing into a park, the bumper gently kisses the parking meter behind and you and then.......BANG!, you explode into an orange ball of flame. Oh the humanity!

Yep and that would be one less woman we could invite to the UCP forum
Oh and before the PC brigade start, EVERY car we've owned my wife has dinged a wing/bumper. She got all four corners on the company car one year. She doesn't even bother to ask if she can drive the A610

[Matra et Alpine]

i think they use liquid hydrogen though, it it just as volitile? also, i didn't know that the hindenburg was in New Jersey, I thought it was a Nazi airship that exploded in Germany

First the hydrogen is kept at high pressure and becomes gaseous at the injection nozzle as it expands.
Breach the tank and it expands VERY quickly. Pressures are MUCH higher than required for LPG. Have you seen/lifted and LPG tank for a dual-fuel car ? My mates Range Rover tank takes two to lift !!
I think cars will have to be designed to use the monocoque/chassis as the storage vessel. But weight could be an issue.

The Hindenburg was the pride of Nazi Germany and until then the airships had excellent safety record. It was coming into land at Lakehurst (spelling?) in New Jersey when it exploded, killing all on board and a number of people below waiting to tether it on 'landing' having just flown the Atlantic. There's a film of the crash and also a 'live' radio broadcast of the accident. It ended the airship as a viable transport almost immediately. Many reasons from static to sabotage have been put forward as the reason over the years.

[crisis]

Yep and that would be one less woman we could invite to the UCP forum
Oh and before the PC brigade start, EVERY car we've owned my wife has dinged a wing/bumper. She got all four corners on the company car one year. She doesn't even bother to ask if she can drive the A610

Well my missus took about 3mm off the rims of the new alloys I put on my Camry ( I deserved it really ) a couple of years ago. I put em on Friday and she butchered them Saturday. Apparently the road wasnt designed properly. She then drove my SV8 with a flat front tyre destroyng it but luckily not the wheel. $270 for a new tyre. She has grazed every flare on my 80 series putting it into the car port. She pretty well avoids asking to drive MY SV8 anymore. Its ok , she doesnt know this forum exists.

[Egg Nog]

Matra et Alpine, the apperent "safety issues" that most people list regarding hydrogen are blown way out of proportion. BMW has done testing with their fleet of 760iH airport taxis, including firing high-impact charges at the tanks themselves. Obviously, with government regulations and such a safety-concerned public, these issues already have been (or will be) addressed.

Hydrogen Facts: http://www.rmi.org/sitepages/pid536.php (From the Rocky Mountain Institute)

[Matra et Alpine]

Matra et Alpine, the apperent "safety issues" that most people list regarding hydrogen are blown way out of proportion. BMW has done testing with their fleet of 760iH airport taxis, including firing high-impact charges at the tanks themselves. Obviously, with government regulations and such a safety-concerned public, these issues already have been (or will be) addressed.

Hydrogen Facts: http://www.rmi.org/sitepages/pid536.php (From the Rocky Mountain Institute)

This is the kind of publicity I was citing when the manufactiurers and interested parties have to convince us of the safety. Amongst lots of valid comments ( the burn comparison with hydrocarbons for exampe ) there are some real manipulation.
The best example is their 'take' on the Hindenburg "myth".
There's no mention of the belief that a leak in one of the vessels caused a build-up beetween the vessels and the outer skin. It is NOT known what caused the ignition and static is only ONE of the options proposed. Notice that they do NOT mention the hydrogen/air mixture building up as that would go against allaying peoples fears - it could happen in my car !!.
The gas tank explosino in the car and saying it's as safe is another mis-truth.
It's actually wquite hard to make petrol burn. The dropped match in movies won't take light as it always does ! Most often it is quenched !!
But hydrogen NATURALLY forms an explosive mix in air as it is naturally gaseous.
I loved the 'cars are designed to prevent hydrogne being trapped' angle. So in the middle of winter ( or summer ) how do you expect to get the passenger compartment to a decent temparature. Having open air vents works in a prototype and early products where compromises are acceptable. But in a car 10 years old with the heater not working efficiently will Mr and Mrs Smith put some tape over that hole where the draft is coming from - YEP
Puncture a fuel tank and you pour fuel on the road at a farily low rate, pucture it above the fule level and NOTHING happens. If a high-pressure vessel is damaged, cracked or joints damaged then gas outflows under enourmous pressure and can produce a JET of directed flame.
And it's hard to stop it ignitiing being hyrdogen !!
I'm not anti Hydrogen and I can't wait, I was only pointing out that it is inherently UNSAFE and that we will be "educated" to accept those risks.
Not being morbid, but how many of the big manufacturers and governments will be in court in the US when the first hydrogen tank rupture kills someone in a car crash. The jury will be shown the horrors of hydrogen by the prosecution. Guess what . . I think we'll see the biggest payout in history.
Course, the cynics (moi?) will point out that's why the rest of the world will have them long before the US