F1 ideas

[MrKipling]

Sorry DSC, I'm afraid that rumour is the truth. The other F1 tams pay Ferrari 'some money' each year "in recognition of their historical significance within the sport". It's in the Concorde Agreement. What a load of shite!

Ferrari also get paid in excess of $30m by Bridgestone for tyre testing.

[Matra et Alpine]

They pick their balance and thats what their priority is. Point is the governing body in NASCAR has the absolute say as to what happens in the sport.

That's because it's a US-only sport.
Every national body can run their own sport and rules within their nation.

BUT international events that require international rules must have those rules lodges and approved by FIA. Usually the "big" formulas have a dedicated FIA section who also assist in applying the rules so that national bias doesn't make the events a farce.

Some of us () are old enough to remember the many "Grand Prix" events which used to run to slightly different rules at different tracks. THAT made making it a "fair" world championship a little hard. Drivers/teams would only turn up to events they wanted to do or where there cars would be best and avoid the the rest. With "stars" in F1 that would now be unacceptable and why ALL major motorsport forumlas now require teams to sign up to most if not all of a series.

The scope may be smaller for a more restraint rule set, but thats price one has to pay to get the "racing" out of it...

You've put your finger spot on the issue that is challenging them. "racing" means different things to different people. Nascar-style is not supported that much outside the US. We have "stock car" which is more HITTING and has a small but dedicated race series and audience. "racing" for most of the rest is about the machinery AND the team AND the track AND the driver. The spectacle comes from the variety of the lines/performance/handling/results by the union of all those features.
There is a place for both and MotoGP and WSB clearly show a successful marriage of ACU and event management can work. FIA-GT and ETCC and WRC and many others show the same in car events with the FIA. Look to why F1 is "different" and you might find the core problem --- Bernie

[Matra et Alpine]

ah the Ferrari monster raises it's head.

Yep, the concorde agreement is "odd" in many places. BUT remember whn it was set up everyoen else was a minnow relying on Ferrari as the draw to the events What's stupid is for those folsk to bleat about it now. THEY signed up to it at the time because it was in their best interest. Kind of supid to bleat abotu it alter. Clearly back then they knew they needed it to be successful !!

That's why a new concorde has been in discussion They only last for short periods !

Also re rule changes they are NOT made up by Bernie and Max. The Motorsport Council oversees these things. The ideas come from the teams, the council and advisors. They needed to slow things down. The tyres were a proposal as it removed mechanical grip. Unfortunately the clever designers jsut upped the downforce and power and clawed it all back. THAT is a fact of life in the pinnacle of any sport. Money will find ways to take advantage of rules. The PROBLEM in F1 was that one team was doing a better job for a few seasons. But nobody was complining about how much money Frank WIlliams was getting from Suadi Arabia when the Williams was the dominant team

and Ferrari getting millions from Bridgestone ? Can anyone name a team which would NOT take that if offered ?? ri-ight

Removing bias from the debate can clarify the issues.

[dcsbeemer]

Sure, I am biased in a lot of ways.

And yes, the teams went into the agreement with eyes wide open. But you have to consider the monopoly good ol' Bern has transformed F1 into. They could either compete and risk going under (Arrows, Forti, Prost and so many others), or they can stay away from F1... What's a team with fuel in their veins to do?

Also, not too long ago, Ecclestone was quoted as saying that "F1 is about quality, not quantity". If anyone is to blame for the dwindling numbers nowadays, surely Ecclestone has to receive the lion's share of the blame?

One team always does better than another. Mac did it in the late 80s, Williams in the early 90s, Benetton in the mid 90s etc. That's how it always was. But Bern saw some more money to be made if Ferrari was to make a comeback. Some say Ferrari was helped quite significantly along the way to their long-overdue domination, others say they did it under own steam. Whatever you believe, I think most will agree the FIA entered panic-mode when Ferrari's momentum just grew and grew. Numbers started to decline as everyone knew which cars would win before the race.

The FIA changed the rules and, more severely, some of the very foundations of what made F1 F1. The qualifying format was totally molested, the pionts-system got revised (for the better or for the worse, depending on your viewpoint), and teams rebelled like never before. Now, when someone rebels you can write it off as sour grapes, but when almost everyone start taking up arms, you know something is seriously amiss...

They say that manufacturers come and go, which may have been true up till now, but when you consider that all the major players have now virtually permanent teams (Mercedes in McLaren, Renault taking over Benetton, Honda buying 45% of B.A.R., BMW buying Sauber and Toyota), I think it's safe to assume they will be around for a while...

And it might sound like I'm anti-Ferrari, which is true up to an extent. My admiration far exceeds my dislike though. They just did, as you pointed out Matra, what anyone would've done in their position.

And about GPWC, it may become manufacturer based, but why would they suddenly just up and leave if they have a stake in it?

F1 has become like a sandpit ruled by two snot-nosed kindergarten bullies with a clear message: "This is the only sandpit. You'll play by our rules, which we can and probably will change at every whim, or you won't play." Make no mistake, Bern and Max do make the rules. With everything in this world, once you go high enough there are always only 1 or 2 people pulling the strings.

The FIA is the motorsport equivalent of the IT world's Microsoft. It's just fitting we get a Linux-equivalent in their as well to even the field.


That's my viewpoint. Yes, I do hate the FIA.

[Matra et Alpine]

the hate is blinding the opionin I think.

Look at the start of your treatise. Bernie is the problem.
He is NOT the FIA and some of the issues have been because he tried to put Max in his pocket. Max played along for soem thigns he thought were right and fought others.

GPWC would be a disaster. ANY race formul run by the teams is guaranteed to fail. F1 has suffered because of Bernie for sure too, that was the destruction of the racing and the future of the privateer for sure.

But you have to ask what would replace it ? GPWC, they will either then race their own formula and safety issues may become problematic. OR they seek FIA Motorsport council membership. if they do the latter what's changed ? The constructors already have input to the rules. The FIA *ASKED* them to come to agreement, even putting Ferrari aside, the others couldnt' agree on all fo it either. So trying to manipulate rules woudl re-apear It's the CONFLICT that Bernie created that weakened F1, times were beter when FOCA exhisted on an equal footing. Bernie destroyed them to take control.

Remove Bernie and his influence and I think you'd find it running a lto more smoothly, mor co-operatively, fairly and better "racing"

[dcsbeemer]

Well, I admit you have very good points Matra. I certainly agree with you on the Bernie Ecclestone thing.

It seems the single biggest improvement to F1 that can be made would be: To axe Bern!

Then of course if I had my way, Max would follow soon after. I'm open to discussion though, especially if the discussion is of as high-quality as can be found here on UCP.

I still think we shouldn't write off GPWC just yet. It may just turn out (if it ever sees the light of day) to be the best thing since the invention of motorsport. Then again, it may not.

[Matra et Alpine]

For me the poetntial failing of GPWC is it's commercial make-up. It's the BIG spending motor manufacturers. As soon as one makes a breakthrough then the others will deem it "unfair".

PB ( Pre-Bernie ) F1 had tracks representation, constructor representation and driver representation in aprtnership and FIA assistance. First the track owners were taken out the loop and then the constructors and the drivers neutered. GPWC plans had no place for tracsk or drivers in the decision make-up so I think would fall foul of the same decision making that got F1 and WSB into the states they are in.

I'd rather them tweak a once workign formula then think that a clean slate prevents all problems. After all there will always need to be the FIA Independant oversight on safety and contracts is critical.

[dcsbeemer]

Once again, good and valid points.

Competition improves the breed though, and with some healthy competition the FIA will either improve (if you like the FIA, read "further". If not, read "finally), or dissappear.

I just hope we get some good racing going soon, like the times I remember as a child. Might be the same era you grew up in, I'm not sure.

What you say about rather F1 being fixed than something completely different yet the same being created does seem like the better route to take. So I'm agreeing with you there.
Suddenly I can remember what happened when CART split up into Champcar and Indy. I don't like either quite much!
I wouldn't want the same to happen to F1/ GPWC.

Somehow I don't think that the world is big enough for both F1 and GPWC though. Winner will take all I think. If it does come down to the wire, I sure hope that whatever happens that it's for the better.

[Matra et Alpine]

I liken the GPWC and F1 with WSB and MotoGP

GP motorbikes were the pinnacle and then Superbikes formed a competing formula - partly because "some" manufacturers with lots of money and clout coudlnt' win So WSB was formed, lots of money lots of hoopla and for a while some interesting races. UNTIL the teams started to be able to beat the ones with moeny. So then the rules were changed to favour those teams - so some could race 750cc and others 1000cc (guess which ones won )!!! But IT then became boring and nobody wanted to compete and MotoGP has returned to the ascendency on technical and racing front. Even if GPWC formed I think F1 may remain and return to the best after everyeon learned all teh errors in teh other route. PS: If you've nto seen a MotoGP race, it's worth it. GREAT racing, privateer teams competing with factiory supported AND factory teams A formula where it is now proven the RIDER can make the difference

I'd hate F1/GPWC to go through the same nonsense as we lost some good teams, riders and races in those "lost" years