2012 Porsche 928.

[DesmoRob]

In any case I don't think an eventual entry level Porsche should be a problem. Not when there's the Cayenne.

In that sense I could agree. They've already shot themselves in the foot, so since they can't move that foot now it doesn't matter much if it gets shot a few more times. On a personal level, I don't even care what Porsche does anymore. I'm arguing for the sake of what once was, which I admit is futile. So be it, let them toss a V10 in the Routan and rebadge it as a Porsche. I'll stay out of it.

[Ferrer]

I dislike the Cayenne as much as everyone else here, but I don't think we should overlook all their lineup just for it. As far as I'm concerned they still make some of the best sportscars currently on sale. And the Panamera may be a bit ugly and quite unPorscheish, but it seems it is quite good.

If we really went as far as not buying a car from any manufacturer that has made something pointless or sacrilegious, well we probably couldn't buy any car at all.

[LeonOfTheDead]

That the same for me, I couldn't bother about Porsche anymore.
In Geneva I didn't even give a decent look (or a look at all) to the new Cayenne, and the only thing I could say about the Boxter Spyder was how laughable was the new soft top, if you can call so that thing. Ridiculous, and they managed to save only 40 kg, which makes it even more of a joke.

The Panamera is just a boat, looking big even next to a Cayenne of the previous gen, and inside it is all about buttons and switches, something surely showy but not really user friendly, and it didn't feel like something really premium, just high-tech-ish at best, like in those cell phones that pretend to do everything, except to go to work for you. Couldn't imagine why to spend that money after I tried the interior of the new XJ, that's an executive sedan! Even the "aging" Quattroporte felt like a better and more special place, but I'm kinda biased on that.

So what's Porsche doing right lately?
Uhm, oh well, uhm... no, the GT3 and GT3 RS are not enough, not anymore, and the last GT2 was even less interesting than the 996 models which were highly criticized for not begin built for homologation purposes.
The Cayman has been basically left out in the cold to preserve the 911, which is like the Peugeot 206, just for richer men. Everyone wants one, especially those who don't know much about cars and need something immediately recognizable by chicks (which may eb the same with some Ferraris, no doubt, still they make more sense to me).

Oh, and that new super-hyper concept car, that's not going to make much of a difference I believe, being also quite too similar to the Carrera GT in my book.

Keep this 928, Jaguar XK for me.

EDIT: Albert, I wouldn't buy a car NOW from a company which is NOW doing something I don't agree with, that's for sure.

[NSXType-R]

A proper grand tourer from Porsche wouldn't create overlapping I believe. Cheaper than a Continental GT, less sporty than a 911 Turbo and perhaps also less expensive. Basically a PanAm Coupe, just using the sedan as the starting point would result in a big mess. NO thanks.

A dedicated model on the other hand, even with a technical basis shared with the fat pig, well, that may be interested, Porsche and its 911 legacy is getting a bit boring lately.

I agree, the 911 is really just a 2 seater with a parcel shelf, so it shouldn't conflict too much.

I personally think that the standard Carrera and Carrera S models already cover quite well the grand tourer end of the spectrum. They aren't as sporty as the GT models or as expensive and fast as turbocharged models. And for many years now they've been the benchmark for medium priced coupes.

Yes an eventual, full four seater front engined V8 coupe may be less focused than a 911 and probably more practical and comfortable too, but there would be at least a bit of overlaping and in any case I personally think that the 911 already covers this market segment quite well.

I honestly think Porsche could pull off a new 914 and a new 928. Unfortunately, they'd probably have to give it a stupid name, like Rectangular Prism or something.

That the same for me, I couldn't bother about Porsche anymore.
In Geneva I didn't even give a decent look (or a look at all) to the new Cayenne, and the only thing I could say about the Boxter Spyder was how laughable was the new soft top, if you can call so that thing. Ridiculous, and they managed to save only 40 kg, which makes it even more of a joke.

The Panamera is just a boat, looking big even next to a Cayenne of the previous gen, and inside it is all about buttons and switches, something surely showy but not really user friendly, and it didn't feel like something really premium, just high-tech-ish at best, like in those cell phones that pretend to do everything, except to go to work for you. Couldn't imagine why to spend that money after I tried the interior of the new XJ, that's an executive sedan! Even the "aging" Quattroporte felt like a better and more special place, but I'm kinda biased on that.

So what's Porsche doing right lately?
Uhm, oh well, uhm... no, the GT3 and GT3 RS are not enough, not anymore, and the last GT2 was even less interesting than the 996 models which were highly criticized for not begin built for homologation purposes.
The Cayman has been basically left out in the cold to preserve the 911, which is like the Peugeot 206, just for richer men. Everyone wants one, especially those who don't know much about cars and need something immediately recognizable by chicks (which may eb the same with some Ferraris, no doubt, still they make more sense to me).

Oh, and that new super-hyper concept car, that's not going to make much of a difference I believe, being also quite too similar to the Carrera GT in my book.

Keep this 928, Jaguar XK for me.

EDIT: Albert, I wouldn't buy a car NOW from a company which is NOW doing something I don't agree with, that's for sure.

They seem to be doing it best though. Porsche seems to be the most sports oriented of all the marques, and the cool thing is that it's relatively affordable. The Boxster is pretty damn good. Don't like the Boxster? Get the Cayman.

[LeonOfTheDead]

They seem to be doing it best though. Porsche seems to be the most sports oriented of all the marques, and the cool thing is that it's relatively affordable. The Boxster is pretty damn good. Don't like the Boxster? Get the Cayman.

I'm my book there are quite a few brands which are doing better than Porsche. Starting with Lotus all the way up to Ferrari, Aston Martin and even Lamborghini (which I don't like). If you want cheaper brands, I think that even Audi is doing better among its portfolio, except for the Q5 apparently outselling the Q7.
Yep, they have two SUVs and not only that's a minor problem than having an SUV from the same company who built the GT3 RS, but they also quite improved the TT, the R8 is indeed an excellent rip-off of the Gallardo and the A5 is doing a good job. And I don't like either of those, but it's definitely a good line up considering the brand.

Porsche on the other hand is focused only on the 911 as if it was its favorite child, and on the cash cows, mainly the Cayenne.

Surely the Boxter is relatively cheap and an excellent car, and so is the Cayman, but especially the latter feels so much "under developed" considering how much attention the 911 gets from Porsche.
I wouldn't say they are doing their best because the main innovation or new stuff lately are on the wrongest models in their line up.

If they were to drop even only one version of the 911 to build a proper Boxter Speedster or even a Cayman RS, it would definitely be a step in the right direction.

The Panamera was showed off all around the world during the testing years, while people forgot the Cayman which eventually is just too expensive for what you get, even more considering what others offer.

I could see Porsche enlarging its line up, somehow fine. On the other hand the design language is getting older and older, in my opinion, boring and way too conservative even from a company which has the same bodywork on production from the last 40 years, and the target of those new models is mainly (mainly) made out of show offers, posers, douches of various kinds.
Which is also why I don't like BMW either, even less after the X6 and the X M models.

If making only sportscars isn't remunerative for them, perhaps they need to change their approach to the business, but that doesn't mean everything is allowed, otherwise what's the point of having a brand in first place, and its heritage? Not saying you should always stick to the tradition, but there is a line not to be crossed.

Generally companies not present in a market they are now interested, tend to buy a company from that market or to establish a new dedicated one.
Like Audi (VW) buying Lamborghini rather than selling a 200.000 € Golf. Don't ask about a 60.000 € SUV from the People's brand though. Or like Toyota establishing Lexus.

[Kitdy]

Leon, Porsche's products are all excellent for what they are though - and excellent when viewed in a general scoope (maybe barring the Cayenne - SUVs are weak). The Cayman/Boxster are some of the best handling cars in the world and have been staples on Car and Driver's 10Best in recent years - for what that's worth. The 911 is a classic - the base models are fantastic, the GT3 is a driver's dream, the Turbo is an icon and the GT2 a super rare hybrid between a sledgehammer and a scalpel.

The Panamera by all accounts I've read is superb and highly competitive, if not the class leader. It's problem is it's ugly ass, but if you get past that and realize how practical it is compared to a "4 door coupe" like a CLS then I think it's clear it's a perfect interpretation of what a Porsche sedan should be.

What I fear about Porsche is a VW merger screwing shit up. I was glad to see that there were setback in the merging process that could see a takeover take until past 2011 - still largely inevitable but I retain some hope that Porsche remains independent somehow.

All in all though, I think the Porsche lineup is extremely solid right now.

[clutch-monkey]

the cayman is quite dull and under-utlised right now, if that's the right word. they really need to liven it up a little, maybe do some extreme RS model. why worry about the 911? that car is a 2+2 with essentially a different user base, and the sales all come back to porsche anyway.
after having a cayman as a courtesy car (yawn), a brief stint behind the wheel of the APR tuned example was a night and day difference, imo.

[LeonOfTheDead]

I basically meant what Clutch said, half of the Cayman success comes from what people hoped from it, then there surely is someone who actually like it and that's far enough with me. I don't even think the Boxter is still so much better than the competition as it was with the first gen when basically it had no competition, and it also costs a lot more.

I used to like both the Cayman and the Boxter, but I don't think I'd buy either of them new, perhaps a second hand model at a much lower price. Otherwise, a 370Z (random pick) should do it. Those two Porsches lack something, spice probably.

The 911 may be a good car, an excellent car, not discussing that, but it's like Golf, it became average because of its own market. You get slightly rich, you want a status symbol car, 911 for you. That's the same with the more expensive Ferrari, but the point is that a lot more people buy the 911 just because "everyone does it" than those who buy a F430 or whatever models Ferrari is selling in that moment.
Not only that, but you're not getting much exclusivity with a Porsche as they think.

People and journalists keep comparing everything on earth with the 911, and if it's not faster (and what does this mean?), it's not worth it.

Recently I saw a review of the Spyker Aileron by Autocar I think, from UK.
I have no doubt the Spyker isn't as fast as a 911 (perhaps not that base model) on a track, but the argument "for this money I want something faster than the 911" is just pure journalism BS. Spyker correctly says those who buy a Spyker don't care about these things, and I can totally see that, just because they are both two sportscars, two coupes and both with about 400 bhp it doesn't mean they have something else in common, let alone the same market.
Not going to call Rolls Royce in the game, but I also don't think those who buy a 911 Turbo would have bought a TVR Sagaris, for instance.

That's what makes me dislike Porsche on top of what they are doing (Cayenne, not developing the Cayman to its possibilities, etc), it's boring. An awesome car as the AM V8 Vantage has been slammed by many because "it's slower than the 911 S"...who cares?!

And the Panamera isn't that more much comfortable or whatever you want, the Quattroporte feels better and looks better. It may be slower, but I couldn't bother less about that.
I honestly felt I was wasting my time checking it, the only other expensive car that disappointed me so much was the Phantom, but I never thought to be the RR type so it was OK.

[Ferrer]

Keep this 928, Jaguar XK for me.

That much I agree. Except for the lack of a proper gearbox.

But then if we don't buy cars from companies which make things we don't like, what can buy? Can we buy anything at all right now?

One of my favourite car companies right now is Jaguar. They've somehow managed to stay from the trend of making everything worse, heavier, more complicated and SUVish. That's been in no doubt helped Land Rover, but still well done Jaguar. However the cheapest Jag sells for 50 grand. What if you don't have that amount of money or what a different kind of car?

Where are you going to go? A BMW? No, they make SUVs and M-branded SUVs. A Mercedes-Benz? Same as bimmers? And Audi? Well they are Audis so that automatically counts them out. A Volvo? SUViness all the way. A Saab? I don't want a Vectra. An Alfa Romeo? Don't want to buy poshed-up Fiats. A Lancia? Same as Alfa. A Lexus? Hybrid nonsense, no thanks. An Infiniti? Their SUVs are even more useless than usual.

And if you have more money to spend you are facing similar problems. A Ferrari? No, I don't want to be associated with brand bought exclusively by people who don't care about cars and let's not get started on the California special-Desperate-Housewives-edition. An Aston Martin? Maybe firing the entire design department and replacing it by fotocopier wasn't such a brilliant idea. A Lamborghini? If I want an Italian Audi that breaks down all the time I'll let you know. A Bentley? Yes, I know they had to get the investment back on the Phaeton but the Continental wasn't necessary.

The thing is, there's plenty wrong within the automotive world nowadays. Probably up to 95% of it. But that shouldn't prevent us from enjoying the other 5% that is still right, and very right at that. At least let's enjoy before they take it away completely.

Leon, Porsche's products are all excellent for what they are though - and excellent when viewed in a general scoope (maybe barring the Cayenne - SUVs are weak). The Cayman/Boxster are some of the best handling cars in the world and have been staples on Car and Driver's 10Best in recent years - for what that's worth. The 911 is a classic - the base models are fantastic, the GT3 is a driver's dream, the Turbo is an icon and the GT2 a super rare hybrid between a sledgehammer and a scalpel.

The Panamera by all accounts I've read is superb and highly competitive, if not the class leader. It's problem is it's ugly ass, but if you get past that and realize how practical it is compared to a "4 door coupe" like a CLS then I think it's clear it's a perfect interpretation of what a Porsche sedan should be.

What I fear about Porsche is a VW merger screwing shit up. I was glad to see that there were setback in the merging process that could see a takeover take until past 2011 - still largely inevitable but I retain some hope that Porsche remains independent somehow.

All in all though, I think the Porsche lineup is extremely solid right now.

This.

[NSXType-R]

I agree with what Ferrer and Kitdy said. All the latest manufacturers have gone off on trends, based on sportiness and purity of the brand, I would say Porsche's got it down pretty tight.

I mean, Volvo even flat out said it wouldn't be doing wagons. If GM and Honda, both wagon averse (in the US market) decides to put out wagons, there has to be a market for it or else they wouldn't be there.

I think that's one of the worse decisions ever- Volvo's always made quirky wagons, that's like Subaru saying they're only going to use inline 4 and inline 6 engines. That's not what the brand stands for.

And I wonder- what would happen if you stuck an inline 6 at the rear of a 911? That's be pretty awkward.

[Kitdy]

And I wonder- what would happen if you stuck an inline 6 at the rear of a 911? That's be pretty awkward.

It wouldn't fit.

Ruf is putting a V8 in the back of one though.

[NSXType-R]

It wouldn't fit.

Ruf is putting a V8 in the back of one though.

I know, it'd change the whole dimensions of the car. It'd just be a funny idea.

I thought it was a flat 8?

[Commodore GS/E]

The Panamera is just a boat

The Panamera may be ugly, but it's not a boat. I mean, lapping the Nürburgring faster than a CTS-V doesn't come from nothing. The new gen Cayenne then looks MUCH better than the previous gens (which, to be honest, looked awful). I still don't loke it, but as long as it sells and enables Porshe to build it's sports cars, i won't bother.
Then the Cayman. I think Porsche gave a huge chance away here by 1) making it that expensive and 2) don't tweak the engine to the maximum of power just to preserve the 911. I mean a guy that wants to buy a 911 won't buy a Cayman. What you can't deny is that the Cayman is about the best handling car of it's class. It's only problem is a lack of power (at least for the base Cayman).
The Boxster then is a whole different game. I saw the Boxster Spyder at an auto show a few weeks ago, and I have to say I really liked it. If you consider how light the base car is, saving 40 kg is a huge deal. Not to mention the good handling. The first gen may have been a bit of a handful, but the recent one is actually pretty good.

A new 928 then sounds fine to me. Don't see any cross-shopping-problems with the 911, as the 928 would be a GT layout and therefore more of a cruiser than a racer. The upcoming Porsche Spyder (entry level, around 34k Euro over here) with it's new flat four engine could also solve the problem of a 968 sucessor, while the 918 will replace the Carrera GT. I think Porsche is doing right so far. As Ferrer said: just enjoy the small parts of the automotive world that aren't completely wrong yet.

[Kitdy]

I thought it was a flat 8?

No, it's a V8.

That car interests me.

[Ferrer]

The Panamera may be ugly, but it's not a boat. I mean, lapping the Nürburgring faster than a CTS-V doesn't come from nothing. The new gen Cayenne then looks MUCH better than the previous gens (which, to be honest, looked awful). I still don't loke it, but as long as it sells and enables Porshe to build it's sports cars, i won't bother.

Just a small comment. Porsche was already profitable before the Cayenne. They had a dark period in the early and mid nineties with aging models and no replacements in sight, with the 993 and 968, but the Boxster was the car which saved Porsche and brought it back to the black. The Cayenne, developed much later was just a case of greed like the later Volkswagen takeover intent.

Porsche didn't really need the money or the volume. They just wanted more for the sake of actually having it. And the chose an SUV, which represents just about everything that's wrong with the automotive world nowadays. So the Cayenne really has no excuse at all.

Thier other cars though, are very competent and should be, at least, considered by all car enthusiats if their in the market for such a car.