New 8-series?

[dydzi]

there will be a new coupe from bmw, but that'll be Z9 - Z8 successor - which will be presented an nearest shanghai motorshow

interestingly the concept of the new 6-series also was presented as Z9 for the first time, in 1999

[sicilian973-2]

it should return with the M edition using the 6.1 liter in the McLaren F1.They did build it.

[NSXType-R]

The rear looks promising but four doors is a big no no. Don't mess with it! Like others said, make it a CL class competitor. BMW needs a big coupe anyway.

[2ndclasscitizen]

it should return with the M edition using the 6.1 liter in the McLaren F1.They did build it.

You've got it round the wrong way. The V12 from the proposed-M8 was used as a initial basis for the V12 built for the F1, but IIRC it ended up completely different and basically a clean design

[Sweeney921]

Bring back?

You do realise that the new MB CL has no b-pillar?

Yes, I know, that's why it would make sense for BMW to make the new 8 series without a B-pillar.

[Cyco]

it should return with the M edition using the 6.1 liter in the McLaren F1.They did build it.

No they didn't.

The V12 was the initial engine, but too heavy, so they dropped it for the V8 and the dynamics were much improved.

Several people have taken their cars and fitted the M3 heads instead of the 2 valve heads the cars came with. This takes a lot of work including creating cams for one side (or they spin the wrong way), and most also do some other internal work in.

This creates a very fast car, but doesn't correct the dynamics, though they still look great.

[Ferrer]

Didn't the 850 CSI use a 5.6-litre V12, which was in all but the name an M car?

[Sweeney921]

No they didn't.

They did, but didn't. BMW built 1 prototype M8 with a 6.0 liter, 550bhp engine. They scrapped the idea and eventually turned the same engine into the one used in the McLaren F1. It was a crazy engine, Mr. McLaren said he could have gotten 1000bhp out of it.

The V12 was the initial engine, but too heavy, so they dropped it for the V8 and the dynamics were much improved.

The 840 series have V8's and the 850 series have V12's. The V12 was never dropped.

[Cyco]

hey did, but didn't. BMW built 1 prototype M8 with a 6.0 liter, 550bhp engine. They scrapped the idea and eventually turned the same engine into the one used in the McLaren F1

The stock engine is a S70. The engine that powered the test car was a S70/1, and the McLaren engine is the S70/2 (if I have all these numbers correct. Peleton25 made an excellent post on it here some time ago).

Despite the naming similarity the S70/2 really has nothing to do with the others, other than it being a V12 built by BMW.

Mr. McLaren said he could have gotten 1000bhp out of it.

Mr McLaren was long dead by the time the car was built.

The 840 series have V8's and the 850 series have V12's. The V12 was never dropped.

Fair enough, it must have stayed with the world market cars, but was not imported for the last year or 2 into this part of the world.

[Sweeney921]

Despite the naming similarity the S70/2 really has nothing to do with the others, other than it being a V12 built by BMW.

Every source I've read from mentions how McLaren helped BMW develop the M8's engine for the F1.

Mr McLaren was long dead by the time the car was built.

My bad, Gordon Murray

[Cyco]

Every source I've read from mentions how McLaren helped BMW develop the M8's engine for the F1.

Paul Rosche did all the work pretty much by himself.

Peleton25 has to be one of the most knowledgeable when it comes to the F1, and this is the sumation that has been posted previously by him:

The F1s engine is actually loosely based on a variation of the 850's V12 - it gets somewhat confusing, but try to follow paying close attention to each engine's specific name in bold to make things more clear.

The standard 850i and 750i/iL BMW models used the M70 engine. It was a 5.0L V12 with one camshaft per cylinder bank and 24 valves that made around 300hp and was used from late 1989 until 1993. Later on in 1994 they would increase the displacement of the M70 to 5.4L creating the M73 which offered 326hp, at the same time changing the name of the car to the 850Ci. The M73 became the standard V12 engine until 1999 when 850 production finally ended.

From the original M70 BMW developed the S70/1 in 1990 which they only built one of. It was close to 6.0L in displacement, had two cams per bank, with 48 valves total and reportedly made close to 550hp. This single engine was developed for the BMW M8 concept which never saw production.

In 1992 BMW also began offering the 850CSi which carried the S70 engine. It was essentially a single cam version of the S70/1, with 24 valves and a reduction from ~6.0L down to 5.6L. This engine was good for 380hp.

It was the S70/1 engine design developed for the M8 that eventually morphed into the S70/2 V12 found in the McLaren F1.

The story goes that Gordon Murray's old friend Paul Rosche, chief engineer at BMW Motorsport, approached him in 1990 at the Hockenheim Grand Prix to inquire about the engine for Murray's sports car project. At the time McLaren still had not found a suitable powerplant for the F1 and Gordon knew he was running out of time. Rosche offered up that his group could build the engine for the F1. It was at that time Rosche mentioned the 48V version of the 850's V12 (S70/1) that they had been developing which he thought would suit Murray's needs.

= = = = = =

Quoting from "Driving Ambition":

On October 25th, 1990, Gordon visited Munich. The hopped up production V12 would not do: "Too big and heavy. Definitely not for us. Then Paul asked 'What do you really want?', so I told him: big displacement in the smallest possible package-size -- absolutley no more than 600mm long -- revving to around seven-five -- 550-plus bhp -- maximum weight 250kg -- rigid enough to work as a load-bearing structural member -- dry-sump lubrication to minimize overall height and avoid surge in high-G cornering.

And Paul simply said 'We'll do a new engine'."

Gordon had instructed the team of Motorsport engineers that power-to-weight was the bottom line and to consider that in everything that they did. "Never use a 10mm bolt when 9mm would do - consider weight as driving the design." He could see them obviously thinking 'who is this loony, telling us how to design engines?' but Paul Rosche backed him up.

The final engine that Motorsport developed out performed McLaren's 550hp target by 14 percent at 627hp. It met the 600mm length requirement, but with all necessary ancillaries, exhaust system and silencer it overshot the weight target by about 16kg. Gordon would forgive them that - 6.4 percent overweight was more than compensated for by 14 percent extra power of course. The first completed S70/2 V12 was delivered to McLaren for fitment to one of their test mules March 4th 1992.

= = = = = =

Later in the F1s lifecycle other variations of the S70/2 were developed for the F1 GTRs and F1 LM. These engines bore the S70/3 designation, and in the case of the 1997 version fitted to the longtail GTRs, displacement was reduced to just under 6.0L to meet the requirements of the rules. It was this engine that also found it's way into the 1998 and 1999 BMW V12 LM and LMR LeMans Prototypes. In most cases the S70/3 made less power than the F1 road car's S70/2 due to air restrictors that were required for racing. The one exception was the F1 LMs S70/3 engine which was unrestricted and made ~680hp.

Hopefully that answers the question and then some. It gets confusing, even for me, but basically regardless of the ties to other production BMW engines, the F1s engine is a unique piece and probably one of the greatest engines ever developed.

[Sweeney921]

gotcha, so basically they originally tried developing the S70/1, but scrapped it for its weight, then designed an entirely different engine and coincidentally called it the S70/2?

[Coventrysucks]

gotcha, so basically they originally tried developing the S70/1, but scrapped it for its weight, then designed an entirely different engine and coincidentally called it the S70/2?

I don't think it is "entirely" different.

As I understand it, they basically took the S70 and redesigned it to Murray's specifications, rather than starting an entirely new engine concept with a clean-sheet design.

That might be wrong, but I can't see why a company like BMW would have a nomenclature system they would "conincidentally" designate an all-new engine design as a varient of an existing product, especially as, when taken at face value, the designation implies that the F1's largely bespoke unit was merely a tweak of the engine from the comparatively hum-drum 7-series.

[F1_Master]

Ugh, a 4-door?

Sorry, but the days of the 2-seater 8 Series will always be where I find it best.

[MRR]

Furthermore I question whether BMW has any reason to bring it back. The 6 series was the main replacement anyway and the original 8-series sold very poorly. Whether they bring it back in 2 or 4 door form it WILL be ugly if you dislike their current design trends.