Actual Horsepower Of '60s/'70s Muscle Cars

[harddrivin1le]

Here are the specs:
The first one is a nickey 427 Camaro, not a Yenko. I got my road tests mixed up.

The second one is a 454 Motion-Baldwin Camaro.

THOSE ARE AFTERMARKET/TUNER CARS! They aren't stock!

Let's compare them to MODERN aftermarket/tuner cars:
Supercar Challenge — Open Class - Comparison Tests - Car and Driver November 2004

1st Place
2004 Hennessey Venom Twin Turbo SRT-10
1/4-mile: 11.0 sec @ 143 mph

2nd Place
2004 Lingenfelter 427 Twin Turbo Corvette
1/4-mile: 11.6 sec @ 136 mph

(Trap speed is the best single indicator of horsepower, since ET is largely traction limited.)



Do you understand the difference between PRODUCTION LINE STOCK and MODIFIED AFTERMARKET?

Do you understand the difference between "ESTIMATES"/RUMORS/MYTHS/UNDOCUMENTED REFERENCES and DOCUMENTED, EMPIRICAL TEST RESULTS (see below charts)?

Do you understand the concept of inflation and that something that costs $5,000 in 1969 would cost ~ $28,000 today? Would you be willing to pay $28,000 today for a car with leaf springs, no overdrive, no modern safety equipment, an AM radio, vinyl seats, no AC, few (if any) power accessories, drum brakes, steel wheels, a lousy structure, ~ 12 MPG fuel economy and acceleration that would, at best, be on par with today's better V6 powered sedans? I wouldn't.

Do you understand how dog-ass SLOW every STOCK, PRODUCTION car in the following charts was compared with this modern, 4,500 pound, V8 powered STATION WAGON?: 2007 Mercedes-Benz E63 AMG Wagon - Specs - Car and Driver - November 2006

[harddrivin1le]

How much power would a 455 be making in say, 1971? Stage 1 or any other 455 will do.

THE hottest GM 455 was the 1970 Buick Stage 1. This recently and professionally rebuilt example managed 381 HP.

Thing is, those results are "corrected" to the old Gross atmospheric standards (60°F, 0% humidity and a barometric pressure of 29.92 in-Hg) and were obtained with no mufflers (or cat converters), no fan, no power steering pump (or AC compressor) and no air cleaner. And those results were obtained with optimized ignition and carb tuning (rejetting, "G" hangers", etc.). (I've also posted the baseline results, which were achieved with stock ignition and carb settings. 360 Gross HP was the best figure in that condition.)

The older atmospheric standard alone adds 3%, relative to the new SAE net standard (77°F, 0% humidity and a barometric pressure of 29.234 in-Hg).

Additionally, this engine was over-bored by .040"- meaning that actual displacement was 465 cubic inches. Furthermore, over-boring un-shrouds the valves, which increases power by increasing head flow.

Obviously a production line stock 1970 Stage 1 made significantly less power than 381 HP, since it wasn't over-bored and since all engine accessories and a complete exhaust system were in place. 350 SAE NET HP is the best real world estimate, which means that Buick's rating (360 Gross HP) was extremely conservative (by Gross standards) and FAR closer to the truth than virtually all of its competitor's. 350 SAE NET HP IS EXCEPTIONAL BY 1970 standards!

[Fleet 500]

"Playboy" recently (just a few months back) ran an article on old and new "musclecars" and spewed out the same nonsense you are (e.g. 500 HP bone stock Camaros that ran tens.) AUTHORITATIVE RESOURCES SAY OTHERWISE. So let's stick with AUTHORITATIVE RESOURCES and WELL DOCUMENTED TEST RESULTS.

Actually, Playboy was just drawing on specs from other car mags. How do I know? Because many of the 0-60 mph times and top speeds matched other road test numbers.

Do you think every car can redline in top gear? Most can't, due to opposing forces (aero drag and rolling resistance). So you can't "project" a top speed based on redline or "estimates." DOCUMENTED TEST RESULTS ARE ALL THAT MATTER.

A Hemi should be able to, due to its high horsepower and excellent breathing.

Do you think a DOCUMENTED 145 MPH is fast by today's standards?

That wasn't the question. The question was "can a Hemi get to 150 mph?" The answer is it's most likely.

COLOR="Red"]Every 4 cylinder car in this recent test managed to top 130 MPH and one topped 150 MPH!
[/COLOR]
2007 Subaru Impreza WRX TR, 2007 Nissan Sentra SE-R Spec V, 2007 Mini Cooper S, 2007 Volkswagen GTI, 2007 Mazdaspeed 3 GT - Comparison Tests - Car and Driver

http://www.caranddriver.com/assets/d...ertrain_ss.pdf

That doesn't prove anything. I can put a souped-up engine in a wheelbarrow and also make it fast. You can have those funny-looking "things," I'll stick with real '60s cars.

The new Z06 Corvette does 198 MPH and the new Viper does 202 MPH! (Both top speeds are DRAG LIMITED, meaning neither car can redline in top gear). They also run mid 11 second, 125 MPH+ quarter miles. They would blow an old street hemi INTO THE WEEDS!

And a '68 Hemi-Dart or Barracuda (both production-line cars) could blow those things in the weeds with its 10.40 second/130 mph 1/4 miles.
As for the other Hemis (the ones in Road Runners, Chargers, etc) remember that the Hemi was detuned for street use whereas the Z06 'Vette and Viper uses a highly-tuned engine.

Now I'm going to call your bluff.

Here are ""Car Life's" 1969 and 1970 road test summaries. How many 150 MPH cars do you see? Answer: NONE

See that Hemi Charger 500? That was their most aero Mopar in terms of drag, since the body was lightly reconfigured to reduce aero drag for stock car racing. With a 3.23 axle ratio, it's DOCUMENTED top speed was 136 MPH.

I have that test (Car Life, April, 1969). It's 136 @ 5700 rpm. It has a lot more revs left. I'll remind you that Car Life (Feb., 1968) got a '68 Hemi GTX Convertible (with 3.23 gears) to 144 mph @ 5900 rpm.

BTW, the most aero Mopar in terms of drag was the '69 Dodge Charger Daytona and the '70 Plymouth Road Runner Superbird.

[harddrivin1le]

..A Hemi should be able to, due to its high horsepower and excellent breathing...That wasn't the question. The question was "can a Hemi get to 150 mph?" The answer is it's most likely...

And a '68 Hemi-Dart or Barracuda (both production-line cars) could blow those things in the weeds with its 10.40 second/130 mph 1/4 miles.

As for the other Hemis (the ones in Road Runners, Chargers, etc) remember that the Hemi was detuned for street use whereas the Z06 'Vette and Viper uses a highly-tuned engine.


I have that test (Car Life, April, 1969). It's 136 @ 5700 rpm. It has a lot more revs left. I'll remind you that Car Life (Feb., 1968) got a '68 Hemi GTX Convertible (with 3.23 gears) to 144 mph @ 5900 rpm.

1) "Should" and "most likely" is not empirical evidence.

2) Post the COMPLETE "Car Life" road test that resulted in the claimed 144 MPH top speed. I want to see if the car was TRULY Stock and if it ever actually achieved that speed. If it did, so what? My 2007, 3.6 liter, 3,700 pound Acura will top 150 MPH and that's not even a fast car by modern standards.

3) Hemi Darts and the original Hemi Cudas came with the DRAG RACING SPEC HEMI (a real 12.5:1 CR, wild cam, headers and different cylinder heads), NO TITLE (couldn't be registered) and were stripped to the bone cars. They were NOT "production line cars" and in fact were specially built by HURST in very low numbers. They required racing fuel in order to run. They were purpose built drag cars that were sold only to well-connected, professional drag racers (like Dick Landy).

4) A car that "has more revs left in it" won't necessarily can go any faster, since most cars are DRAG LIMITED (a combination of aero drag and rolling resistance).[/B]

5) For the benefit of those who don't know (including "Fleet 500"), this is what a competitive Hemi Dart looked like in competition form "back in the day." The RACE SPEC Hemis (quite different than the street hemis) were generally fully disassembled, professionally fully blueprinted and fitted with an even wilder cam (as allowed in Super Stock), open long tube racing headers, various other after-market parts and huge slicks. A 4.88 axle ratio (with no overdrive) was typical. The cars didn't even have window cranks or side glass - they used straps and plexiglass instead. The seats were taken from their delivery van. No sound-deadener, radio or heater were installed in the cars. They were STRIPPED TO THE BONE and then MODIFIED further before even seeing the drag strip. They were NOT street cars.

[Fleet 500]

Hemi Darts and the original Hemi Cudas came with the DRAG RACING SPEC HEMI (a real 12.5:1 CR, wild cam, headers and different cylinder heads), NO TITLE (couldn't be registered) and were stripped to the bone cars. And they were NOT "production line cars." They were specially built by HURST. They would not run on pump gasoline. They were purpose built drag cars that were sold only to well-connected, professional drag racers (like Dick Landy).

Sounds like you need to check your FACTS.

Furthermore, a car that "has more revs left in it" won't necessarily can go any faster, since most cars are DRAG LIMITED (a combination of aero drag and rolling resistance).

I know all about the Hemi Darts and Barracudas. Afterall, I've been reading about them for 30 years now. I know they had a 12.5 compression ratio and the other things. That's because it used the race Hemi, not the street-tuned Hemi.
They were production cars in that anyone could have walked into a Chrysler-Plymouth or Dodge dealer and order one. About 80 of each were built. You would walk into the same place you would order a slant-six Valiant or a Plymouth station wagon and order one of those Super Stock Mopars.

As for not running on pump gas, I'll check at a Mopar site; one of the members owns a (street legal) '68 Hemi Barracuda.
On paper, they couldn't be registered or street driven but there are people who do own street-legal Hemi Darts and Barracudas. I saw two at one of the Mopar shows drive into the display area.
And they weren't really stripped to the bone. They had functional headlights and windshield wipers.

As for the Street Hemi's top speed, I've already posted specs on those which could do 145-155 mph. Not to mention the many in the hands of owners who personally took them to 140+ mph.

[nota]

"Playboy" recently (just a few months back) ran an article on old and new "musclecars" and spewed out the same nonsense you are (e.g. 500 HP bone stock Camaros that ran tens.) AUTHORITATIVE RESOURCES SAY OTHERWISE. So let's stick with AUTHORITATIVE RESOURCES and WELL DOCUMENTED TEST RESULTS

Actually, Playboy was just drawing on specs from other car mags. How do I know? Because many of the 0-60 mph times and top speeds matched other road test numbers.

A Hemi should be able to, due to its high horsepower and excellent breathing.

That wasn't the question. The question was "can a Hemi get to 150 mph?" The answer is it's most likely.

And a '68 Hemi-Dart or Barracuda (both production-line cars) could blow those things in the weeds with its 10.40 second/130 mph 1/4 miles.
As for the other Hemis (the ones in Road Runners, Chargers, etc) remember that the Hemi was detuned for street use whereas the Z06 'Vette and Viper uses a highly-tuned engine.

I have that test (Car Life, April, 1969). It's 136 @ 5700 rpm. It has a lot more revs left. I'll remind you that Car Life (Feb., 1968) got a '68 Hemi GTX Convertible (with 3.23 gears) to 144 mph @ 5900 rpm.

BTW, the most aero Mopar in terms of drag was the '69 Dodge Charger Daytona and the '70 Plymouth Road Runner Superbird.

harddrivin1le,

Thanks once again Sir for taking up your time to cut through the cheese and share your knowledge, experience and quality postings

My only regret is you weren't around earlier!

Although the Mopar 440 is my personal favorite, I would have to go with the 426-Hemi. As Bobby Isaacs once said, "The Hemi turns on where the others shut off."
Also, it's the engine the powered the '69 Charger Daytona to a top speed of over 180 mph straight from the factory.

[harddrivin1le]

I know all about the Hmei Darts and Barracudas. Afterall, I've been reading about them for 30 years now. I know they had a 12.5 compression ratio and the other things. That's because it used the race Hemi, not the street-tuned Hemi.
They were production cars in that anyone could have walked into a Chrysler-Plymouth or Dodge dealer and order one. About 80 of each were built. You would walk into the same place you would order a slant-six Valiant or a Plymouth station wagon and order one of those Super Stock Mopars.

As for not running on pump gas, I'll check at a Mopar site; one of the members owns a (street legal) '68 Hemi Barracuda.
On paper, they couldn't be registered or street driven but there are people who do own street-legal Hemi Darts and Barracudas. I saw two at one of the Mopar shows drive into the display area.
And they weren't really stripped to the bone. They had functional headlights and windshield wipers.

As for the Street Hemi's top speed, I've already posted specs on those which could do 145-155 mph. Not to mention the many in the hands of owners who personally took them to 140+ mph.

Produce the ACTUAL ROAD TEST where a bone stock, production built 426 hemi street car went "155 MPH."

You're on crack if you believe that.

[harddrivin1le]

I know all about the Hmei Darts and Barracudas. Afterall, I've been reading about them for 30 years now. I know they had a 12.5 compression ratio and the other things. That's because it used the race Hemi, not the street-tuned Hemi.
They were production cars in that anyone could have walked into a Chrysler-Plymouth or Dodge dealer and order one. About 80 of each were built. You would walk into the same place you would order a slant-six Valiant or a Plymouth station wagon and order one of those Super Stock Mopars.

As for not running on pump gas, I'll check at a Mopar site; one of the members owns a (street legal) '68 Hemi Barracuda.
On paper, they couldn't be registered or street driven but there are people who do own street-legal Hemi Darts and Barracudas. I saw two at one of the Mopar shows drive into the display area.
And they weren't really stripped to the bone. They had functional headlights and windshield wipers.

As for the Street Hemi's top speed, I've already posted specs on those which could do 145-155 mph. Not to mention the many in the hands of owners who personally took them to 140+ mph.

Produce the ACTUAL ROAD TEST where a bone stock, regular production, 426 hemi powered street car went "155 MPH."
You're on crack if you believe that.

The Charger 500 Hemi with 3.23s below could only manage 136 MPH. The fastest car in those lists is the "435 HP" (Gross) L72 427 Corvette with a 3.08 axle; it was all done at 141 MPH. The second fastest car on that list is the "390 HP" (Gross) L36 427 Corvette; it managed 134 MPH. Corvettes were a lot lighter AND a lot more aero than any Street Hemi powered car and the L72 427 made just as much power.

Several of today's SIX CYLINDER sedans (including my 2007 Acura TL Type S) will top 150 MPH. This '04 Acura TL went 152 MPH (DRAG LIMITED) and that was with the older 3.2 liter (196 cubic inches) V6 engine. Acura TL A-Spec - - Car and Driver - May 2004

[Fleet 500]

Produce the ACTUAL ROAD TEST where a bone stock, regular production, 426 hemi powered street car went "155 MPH."
You're on crack if you believe that.

The Charger 500 Hemi with 3.23s below could only manage 136 MPH. The fastest car in those lists is the "435 HP" (Gross) L72 427 Corvette with a 3.08 axle; it was all done at 141 MPH. The second fastest car on that list is the "390 HP" (Gross) L36 427 Corvette; it managed 134 MPH. Corvettes were a lot lighter AND a lot more aero than any Street Hemi powered car and the L72 427 made just as much power.

Okay, I'll look through some road tests and post them.
But you are ignoring the 144 mph top speed of a '68 Hemi GTX which Car Life tested.
Also included should be the Hemi-powered Charger Daytonas and Superbirds which could do 160+ mph.

And do you really think a '69 Charger 500 Hemi with 3.23 gears could only do 136? Who's on crack now?

[harddrivin1le]

Okay, I'll look through some road tests and post them.
But you are ignoring the 144 mph top speed of a '68 Hemi GTX which Car Life tested.
Also included should be the Hemi-powered Charger Daytonas and Superbirds which could do 160+ mph.

And do you really think a '69 Charger 500 Hemi with 3.23 gears could only do 136? Who's on crack now?

YEP.

136 is about it. It might be worth a couple of more MPH if one were willing to die for it, since the suspension, brakes, tires, etc. simply weren't up to the task.

I'll accept the 144 MPH speed when you post the FULL ARTICLE proving it. My guess is that it was MODIFIED.

But even 144 MPH isn't very fast by modern standards...

This FOUR CYLINDER, BONE STOCK Dodge Caliber does 155 MPH (drag limited):

Full Test: 2008 Dodge Caliber SRT4 - Road Tests - Car and Driver November 2007

http://www.caranddriver.com/assets/d...srt4_08_ss.pdf

And look at this BONE STOCK, 4,200 pound Chrysler 300 SRT 8 (6.1 liter Hemi). It did 173 MPH! And it ran the quarter in 13.2 @ 109 MPH!

[harddrivin1le]

Also included should be the Hemi-powered Charger Daytonas and Superbirds which could do 160+ mph.

PRODUCE THE ACTUAL ROAD TEST WHERE THAT STUNNING EVENT WAS DOCUMENTED.

160+ mph....for a 40 year old, ~ 360 HP SAE NET HP, 4,000 pound crate

The hottest 427 Corvettes (e.g. L72) from that era fitted with 3.08 axle ratios could barely top 140 MPH and they were smaller, lighter and just as powerful than those hemi sedans.



Here's my proof that a BONE STOCK, 4,212 pound Chrysler 300C SRT8 can do 173 MPH (with a 6.1 liter V8 Hemi running 92 octane unleaded and while complying with modern emissions, safety and fuel economy standards.)

Produce ANY vintage "muscle car" test that produced results like those when the car was KNOWN TO BE 100% BONE STOCK. I will spot you ANY tires.

[harddrivin1le]

This BASE MODEL (not a Z06), 378 cubic inch Corvette does ONE HUNDRED AND NINETY MPH - BONE STOCK!

And it runs the quarter in 12.4 seconds at 116 MPH - fully loaded with luxury options and capable of getting 26 MPG.

Stop living in the past. The old stuff is fine for what it was. 40 years of progress have made it OBSOLETE. This is almost like arguing that an 8 track tape sounds better than a CD player. It's just plain STUPID!

Full Test: 2008 Chevrolet Corvette - Road Tests - Car and Driver September 2007

http://www.caranddriver.com/assets/d..._z51_08_ss.pdf

[Fleet 500]

YEP.

136 is about it. It might be worth a couple of more MPH if one were willing to die for it, since the suspension, brakes, tires, etc. simply weren't up to the task.

Come on... look at the chart you posted again... a '69 Olds/Hurst 455 with 3.42 gears could do 132 mph and a '68 El Camino 396 with 3.36 gears could also do 132... a much more powerful Hemi could only go 4 mph faster? I hope you're just joking!
Even a big 'ol 1970 Cadillac Eldorado could do 125-130 mph; same thing with an Olds Toronado.

I'll accept the 144 MPH speed when you post the FULL ARTICLE proving it. My guess is that it was MODIFIED.

Okay, I have the test and will post it. It was NOT modifed. It was a standard Car Life (Feb., 1968) test of a '68 Plymouth GTX Convertible with an as tested price of $4,874.

This FOUR CYLINDER, BONE STOCK Dodge Caliber does 155 MPH (drag limited):

And look at this BONE STOCK, 4,200 pound Chrysler 300 SRT 8 (6.1 liter Hemi). It did 173 MPH! And it ran the quarter in 13.2 @ 109 MPH!

Come on... those cars have 35+ years of techonolgy to work with. I'd rather have a '60s Mopar. Mildly modify it (which would cost a lot less than buying a new car) to have run in the 12s.

[harddrivin1le]

Come on... look at the chart you posted again... a '69 Olds/Hurst 455 with 3.42 gears could do 132 mph and a '68 El Camino 396 with 3.36 gears could also do 132... a much more powerful Hemi could only go 4 mph faster? I hope you're just joking!
Even a big 'ol 1970 Cadillac Eldorado could do 125-130 mph; same thing with an Olds Toronado.



Okay, I have the test and will post it. It was NOT modifed. It was a standard Car Life (Feb., 1968) test of a '68 Plymouth GTX Convertible with an as tested price of $4,874.

Speed is a THIRD ORDER determinant of required HORSEPOWER (e.g. doubling speed required roughly 8 TIMES the horsepower).

The difference in required Horsepower between 125 MPH and 144 MPH is therefore VERY LARGE - particularly so in big, heavy cars with mediocre at best aerodynamic traits.

Hemis were very heavy cars; most were pushing TWO TONS. (Weight increases rolling resistance - again exponentially).

$4,874 in 1968 dollars is the equivalent of ~ $29,000 today. That's attributable to a little thing called INFLATION.

I wouldn't pay $29,000 today for a 2 ton, ~ 350 HP crate that had drum brakes, leaf springs, 6" wide steel wheels, an AM radio, a horribly flexible structure, little-to-nothing in the way of luxury and safety equipment, lacked an overdrive transmission, averaged ~ 9 MPG, was loud and had a hard time idling in traffic without fowling the plugs. Would YOU?

The fact of the matter is that I am a mechanical engineer who DESIGNS ENGINES FOR A LIVING. I am not going to tell you for whom. But I will tell you that you clearly have NO UNDERSTANDING of this subject matter and are clinging onto obsolete technology with fanatical fervor.

[harddrivin1le]

My parents "300 HP" 350, F41 equipped 1969 Impala could manage an indicated 115 MPH - flat out - with a 2.73 axle ratio (12 bolt, posi). That was the L48 350 (standard Corvette engine). My wife's 1990 4 cylinder Honda Civic was STILL CLIMBING at 115 MPH. My 2007 Acura TL Type S (3,674 pounds, 3.5 liter/212 cubic inch V6) passes by the 115 (and the 125 MPH and the 135) MPH mark without even trying.


This "385 HP" (Gross) 427 Chevy SS was fitted with a 3.07 axle ratio. It was all done (drag limited) at 125 MPH.

125 MPH back then was REALLY MOVING for a street car. Today, it's common-place for many 4 cylinder, mass produced cars - especially those that aren't electronically governed.