McLaren gone for 2007 + 2008. [RUMOUR]

[Daz27]

Brilliant ^^^^^^^^^^^^

[RacingManiac]

retarded...

[Equinox]

I am a fan of McLaren, and can't believe they would be accused of this crap. But it is possible. Stuff like this (cheating) happens in sports all the time. (latest ex. The Patroits NFL team video taping there rivals during a game).

What a way for Lewis Hamilton to start his Formula 1 career... By being associated with a team that cheated. Even if they didn't, it will be with them for a very long time. People always seem to remember bad stuff rather than good stuff. Thats why we have news channel's like cnn. To report the negative.

Who ever said McLaren has a bad sporting history is just crazy... Look at all there accomlishments. I don't call that "bad". I hope they can get through all this trouble, and emerge better than ever when its all over.

[Coventrysucks]

Well done to the FIA/WMSC.

They have released the transcripts for the hearing on the 13/9/07.

Unfortunately, in the first public release, they "blanked" out confidential information from both Ferrari and McLaren, which could be read by simply copying and pasting the "blanked" areas into any word processor program.

Of course they will be banning themselves from the Championship and fining themselves $100 million for this gross breach of confidentiality, and leaking McLaren and Ferrari secrets to the other teams.

I have not had the opportunity to read both exhaustively, but allegedly Max Mosley is a much nicer person in the second release too...

Aside from that, it really does show that the punishment meted out by the WMSC is utterly inappropriate - in the first paragraph Mosley announces that he doesn't know if everyone on the council has actually read the dossier of sworn statements used as evidence!

The entire decision of the council seems to rest on suspicion of wrongdoing, rather than proof of wrongdoing.

Mosley is even quoted in Autocar of saying as much:

[He believes the Mclaren drivers should have been stripped of points] 'on the grounds that there is a suspicion that they had an advantage that they should not have had'.

A suspicion, not proof.

"An advantage"? 10 seconds a lap? 0.0001 seconds per lap? A better recipe for pancakes? They cannot even say what the "advantage" is.

If had been a court case, it would have taken months to accrue evidence, examine witnesses, put together arguments for prosecution and defence, etc - that the entire proceeding was condensed into mere hours for the convenience of those on the council shows how flawed their final decision is - it took just 25 minutes for the council to debate McLaren's guilt.

[magracer]

Unfortunately, in the first public release, they "blanked" out confidential information from both Ferrari and McLaren, which could be read by simply copying and pasting the "blanked" areas into any word processor program.

Lol, this is an instant classic! Just shows how tight this billion dollar organization is run...

[RacingManiac]

If I was caught in the exam with a cheat sheet, even if it was in my bag and I claim I did not use it, would I get away clean? I doubt it....

At any rate, if McLaren does not appeal to the punishment based on suspicion, draw your own conclusion with their innocence.....

[The_Canuck]

If I was caught in the exam with a cheat sheet, even if it was in my bag and I claim I did not use it, would I get away clean? I doubt it....

Thats not a great analogy...it's more like a best friend of yours had a cheat sheet and the teacher assumed you looked at it because you're best friends. A valid suspicion but there is no real proof.

[RacingManiac]

But in Mclaren's case they do HAVE the documents, and there were definitely knowledge of it within the team from people other than Coughlan, people are saying there isn't proof of McLaren used the document, but the possession of it is enough to be a crime, much like possession of stolen goods.....

[The_Canuck]

But in Mclaren's case they do HAVE the documents, and there were definitely knowledge of it within the team from people other than Coughlan, people are saying there isn't proof of McLaren used the document, but the possession of it is enough to be a crime, much like possession of stolen goods.....

But Mclaren is a team not one person. If one person steals you can't charge a whole group.

[Coventrysucks]

But in Mclaren's case they do HAVE the documents, and there were definitely knowledge of it within the team from people other than Coughlan,

If possession of the document is enough for a penalty, why was there no penalty following the 26/07/07 hearing?

McLaren has never disputed the fact that one of their employees had the document.

As to "definite" knowledge of the documents within the team - rubbish!

If it was "definite" it would have been proven at the hearing - Ferrari couldn't prove it, the WMSC couldn't prove it. Mosley said it himself - there was only "suspicion", which is, by definition, in no way "definite".

McLaren invited the FIA to perform their own investigations into the '07 car and their offices, the FIA declined - if they believed there was any chance of "definitely" proving the case, why would they throw that opportunity away?

The only person at McLaren that has beeen proven to have been in possession of, or known about the Ferrari document is Mike Coughlan.

Further to that, the only people at McLaren who have been proven to have seen Ferrari data are Alonso and de la Rosa; anything else, without further evidence, is speculation.

At any rate, if McLaren does not appeal to the punishment based on suspicion, draw your own conclusion with their innocence...

How are they supposed to appeal?

How do you "prove" that someone's pre-disposed "suspicion" is wrong?

They have offered their car, premises and computer systems for scrutiny, and have sworn statements from every one of their engineers that the data was not known about or used - what more can they possibly provide by way of evidence that proves their innocence?

I suppose that McLaren could keep fighting, drag some other teams into it - Two of Toyota's engineers have been jailed for stealing and using Ferrari wind-tunnel data, and earlier this year Spyker used "leaked" Red Bull technical drawings as part of their case against Toro Rosso & Super Aguri's use of "customer cars", the allegation that Phil Mackereth took McLaren data with him to Renault...

What will all that achieve, aside from more damage to the reputations of all involved, and more distractions away from the track, where the focus is supposed to be?

They have already said they want to draw a line under the case, and are even pressing to have the '08 car scrutinised as soon as possible (presumably so that Prodrive can find out whether they are racing next year).

[henk4]

The only person at McLaren that has beeen proven to have been in possession of, or known about the Ferrari document is Mike Coughlan.

Further to that, the only people at McLaren who have been proven to have seen Ferrari data are Alonso and de la Rosa; anything else, without further evidence, is speculation.

what a team, with the drivers and one chief designer personally filling the tyres with gas....just to avoid more people from knowing the documents...

[Coventrysucks]

what a team, with the drivers and one chief designer personally filling the tyres with gas....just to avoid more people from knowing the documents...

As Carl Sagan said:

Observation:
I can't see the surface of Venus

Conclusion:
Dinosaurs!

[henk4]

As Carl Sagan said:

Observation:
I can't see the surface of Venus

Conclusion:
Dinosaurs!

and???

[RacingManiac]

Original July Hearing:

McLaren was found guilty of possessing the document, but not punished because of the inability of FIA at the time of them utilizing the information. They were never declared clear of the possession. FIA had no proof of any utilization of the information. And according to Ferrari, they were never allowed to present their version of the case, which was the initial reasoning and ground for their appeal post-July hearing...

People other the Coughlan:

According to his own admission, he has shown the document, or have discussed with 4 other McLaren personnel about the document or receiving Ferrari information(autosport.com - F1 News: Analysis: Coughlan's version put to test. Aside from those, there were the hearing evidence by De la Rosa and Alonso. However, it is hard for me to believe as a chief designer at McLaren the first guy I'd talk to about engineering information, would be the driver or test driver. On any race team that I've ever worked on, driver is usually the LAST to know of anything, simply because that is not their capacity to know. FIA is guessing, and rightly so in my view that someone else must have known about the information that De la Rosa and Alonso talked about. Driver simply does not control what parameter they want to test or will test.

Utilization of the Ferrari knowledge:

While no Ferrari IP have been found with McLaren, the knowledge of your opponents' current development cannot have been overlook. As F1 spends tens of million of $$$ on R&D, what to look for and what not to look for can be useful in itself. Maybe knowing Ferrari have tried something and didn't work could've steered McLaren away from doing something, or seeing how Ferrari did some components allowed McLaren to take certain design shortcut. We don't know and either way no one can say McLaren just took something and copied it. No engineer would do that anyway. On top of that this season has the control Bridgestone which fools no one will give Ferrari a big advantage, in any other year with tire war and bespoke tire for each car, knowing Ferrari's setup means nothing. But this year since everyone is running on the same 4 donuts every race, knowing what the benchmark will be for that given tire will save them time to catch up to Ferrari. Here you must give credit to McLaren though, as they clearly proved that once they caught up they quickly passed Ferrari in terms of the tire usage, only thing is no one can say that it was done completely on their own. Back to the exam example, if I had known the parameter of the test to start with, or the exact question, instead of spending 20 hours studying everything, I can just focus on the question and got it done quickly. Can you say that is not gaining an advantage despite not having blatantly copied the information? Yes these are speculation, but to that effect if McLaren was careful they would have left no trace of this, and as I said even if they have used the information they would not be obvious in anyway(not like they gonna leave a record or an addendum in their documents saying "as per knowledge obtained by M. Coughlan's secret Ferrari data")...


McLaren's problem:

IMO, biggest issue with the whole deal, is lack of open-ness from McLaren from the beginning. Regardless whether McLaren people knows about the 780 page dossier or not, the fact that they know of someone inside Ferrari leaking them information about their setup or race strategy(ref. De la Rosa to Alonso about knowing when Kimi is coming to pit in Oz GP), they could've blown the whistle and said look here, you have someone fishy in your outfit, and notified FIA about this in March. Instead they steadfestly claimed Coughlan was acting alone and no one else knew of this(at the very least, Alonso and De la Rosa knew, one engineering staff have seen one drawing from the dossier, De la Rosa made reference to their flexi-wing is a similar design to Ferrari's((as if driver would know)), De la Rosa made reference to their braking system development...etc), and when the evidence came out that at the very very least, proved that point is false, then the question became what have McLaren got to hide in the first place? why did they try to cover that fact up?

[fpv_gtho]

But Mclaren is a team not one person. If one person steals you can't charge a whole group.

McLaren as a team though are responsible for each of their employees actions, covering both staff members and drivers.