Muscle Car Shootout from Dream Car Garage PART ON - VideoOriginally Posted by Fleet 500
TIME MARKER 13:47:
"THEY [COKER TIRE] PROVIDED US WITH EXACTLY THE SAME TIRES THAT THE CARS LEFT THE FACTORY WITH."
Member
Muscle Car Shootout from Dream Car Garage PART ON - Video
TIME MARKER 13:47:
"THEY [COKER TIRE] PROVIDED US WITH EXACTLY THE SAME TIRES THAT THE CARS LEFT THE FACTORY WITH."
Last edited by harddrivin1le; 03-07-2008 at 04:12 PM.
Member
Show me with 100% certainty that the magazine in question didn't test a specially prepared factory ringer that used an engine similar to the one described here by a SUPER STOCK magazine editor and tester from the sixties:
'69-1/2 REGISTRY - SUPER BEE PROMO AD
PRODUCTION LINE STOCK 440 DARTS WERE ~ 300 HP (SAE NET), 3,400 POUND CARS.
There is no way that combination is going to yield a 113 MPH trap speed or anything remotely close to it.
Last edited by harddrivin1le; 03-07-2008 at 04:08 PM.
Member
http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/c...g?t=1204931933
The 440 Roadrunner YOU posted had a hard time cracking 102 MPH ON SLICKS. (That article also states that the difference in trap speed between slicks and bias ply tires was nil.) That right in line with other good running 440 roadrunners with UNMODIFIED engines.
The 440 Dart was only 200 pounds or so lighter than that Roadrunner (~ 3,450 vs. ~ 3,650 pounds).
So how could a STOCK 440 Dart possibly have trapped 11 MPH faster than that Roadrunner? ANSWER: It couldn't have; the Dart HAD to be modified - somewhere by someone.
Your "logic" never adds up. You take the single fastest time as gospel and never bother "connecting the dots" to see if it makes sense and fits in with the aggregate.
Last edited by harddrivin1le; 03-07-2008 at 04:34 PM.
Fanatic
Everyone (except you) knows that tires are much improved from '60s tires. Even modern bias ply tires are better than the '60s version.
Here is another quote: (Car Life, July, 1969, Dodge Super Bee, 440-6 Pack) "Only on the starting line did it reveal its true self, requiring some pretty tender throttle manipulation to keep wheelspin at a minimum and to get optimum bite."
More:
(Car Life, May, 1968, 383 Road Runner) "When we did our acceleration testing, we came away slightly disappointed. At 15.37 sec and 91.4 mph [3.23 gears], the car just didn't come up to our expectations. We did have two people aboard, and the street tires let a good deal of torque go up in rubber smoke, but at least we had the compensation of knowing that stickier tires and less weight would probably have let us break into the 14s."
(Car Life, June, 1969, 440 'Cuda) "The test drivers experimented a lot while hunting for the best and quickest way to get the car off the starting line. Too much throttle would smoke the tires, nothing more. The problem was to find traction."
(Motor Trend, May, 1970) "The Hemicuda had to be babied 'til it was way down the strip as it could really spin the tires."
(Motor Trend, May, 1970, 340 'Cuda) "Best results were obtained by leaving at idle and smoothly adding a quarter throttle, thereby minimizing wheelspin, and then laying into it."
(Car & Driver, Feb., 1968, 428 Pontiac GTO) "You can light up the car's tires like it was an AA-fueler anytime the notion seizes your fancy."
(Road Test, May, 1968, Pontiac GTO 400) "We found it all too easy to induce excessive wheelspin getting off the line."
(Car Life, June, 1964, Pontiac GTO 389) "Feathing both the clutch and throttle is required to get the best elapsed times over a 1/4 mile timing strip. The usual throttle-to-the-floorboards technique produces only tire smoke and poor times. The best starts seemed to be obtained with about 3000 rpm being held and fed through a feathered clutch to the drivetrain until the car was well launched. Even so, excessive wheelspin could be induced with too-harsh speed shifts up to the next gear."
(Motor Trend, Dec., 1970, '71 Hemi Charger) "With cars of this type, traction is always a problem, necessitating smooth throttle control on the starting line if you seek to do other than incinerate the tires."
'76 Cadillac Fleetwood Seventy-Five Limousine, '95 Lincoln Town Car.
Fanatic
I thought you were going to show me that the 440 Dart in that article had headers? BTW, it weighed 3,350 lbs.
Incidentally, the test '69 440 Super Bee (the twin of the Road Runner) in Car Life (July, 1969) ran a 13.82 sec @ 104.2 mph 1/4 mile with two aboard and test equipment and 13.75 @ 104.52 with only the driver aboard. I don't see why it's so unbelievable for a 440 Dart, which weighs quite a bit less than the RR (3,845 lbs VS 3,350 lbs) and had aftermarket tires could run about 7.5 mph faster.
'76 Cadillac Fleetwood Seventy-Five Limousine, '95 Lincoln Town Car.
Member
Let's pretend that's true (even though you cite no EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE to back your claim.)
The end results (ET and Trap Speeds) on those videos were still virtually identical to what the magazines in the sixties were recording and some of them were SLOWER.
That's because many of the magazines tested FACTORY PREPARED RINGERS and the cars in those videos weren't ringers.
Most of the cars in those videos clearly had good traction, yet were no faster than many modern V6 Japanese family sedans!
A brand new Dodge SRT-8 (4,200 pound sedan) would have smoked every one of those old bombs.
Last edited by harddrivin1le; 03-07-2008 at 05:29 PM.
Member
You don't know the difference between NHRA STOCK and NHRA SUPER STOCK classes.
NHRA stock required STOCK cylinder heads, STOCK cam and STOCK intake manifolds (but did permit full blueprinting and open long tubes).
440 Darts in that class produced roughly 400 HP and ran mid to upper 12s in the 111 - 113 MPH ranges. THAT is what I was referring to.
SUPER STOCK permitted ANY CAM, ANY intake manifold and ANY HEADS (plus all of the mods allowed in STOCK class) along with additional chassis mods.
SUPER STOCK cars were therefore much faster.
Either way, PRODUCTION LINE STOCK 440 Farts (~ 300 SAE NET HP and a 3,450 pound curb weight) weren't capable of trapping at anything close to 113 MPH - with ANY tires!
Last edited by harddrivin1le; 03-07-2008 at 05:01 PM.
Fanatic
And you still haven't showed that the test 440 Dart had headers. I will point out again that other magazines which tested 440 Darts got mid-to-high 13s at 104-107 mph with the stock skinny tires. Running high-12s at 111-112 mph is not some wild claim.You don't know the difference between NHRA STOCK and NHRA SUPER STOCK classes.
NHRA stock required STOCK cylinder heads, STOCK cam and STOCK intake manifolds (but did permit full blueprinting and open long tubes).
440 Darts in that class produced roughly 400 HP and ran mid to upper 12s in the 111 - 113 MPH ranges. THAT is what I was referring to.
SUPER STOCK permitted ANY CAM, ANY intake manifold and ANY HEADS (plus all of the mods allowed in STOCK class) along with additional chassis mods.
SUPER STOCK cars were therefore much faster.
Either way, PRODUCTION LINE STOCK 440 Farts (~ 300 SAE NET HP and a 3,450 pound curb weight) weren't capable of trapping at anything close to 113 MPH - with ANY tires!
'76 Cadillac Fleetwood Seventy-Five Limousine, '95 Lincoln Town Car.
Fanatic
Don't have to pretend, it is true. As the many quotes I posted from '60s magazine articles show.
A lot of the owners/drivers do not race them at full potential, due to the rarity and age of the vehicle.The end results (ET and Trap Speeds) on those videos were still virtually identical to what the magazines in the sixties were recording and some of them were SLOWER.
And many didn't, Car Life, Motor Trend and Road Test, for example.That's because many of the magazines tested FACTORY PREPARED RINGERS and the cars in those videos weren't ringers.
Then why were there comments about wheelspin? And what does it have to do with modern blob cars?Most of the cars in those videos clearly had good traction, yet were no faster than many modern V6 Japanese family sedans!
Back to new VS old again? Lol. Many street racers would do mild-to-moderate mods on there cars and would run low-13s or 12s... more than enough to keep up with or pass a cars with a 40-year technology advantage.A brand new Dodge SRT-8 (4,200 pound sedan) would have smoked every one of those old bombs
'76 Cadillac Fleetwood Seventy-Five Limousine, '95 Lincoln Town Car.
Member
Dodge Dart and Plymouth Duster - Google Book Search
"Car Craft" magazine tested a 1969 Dart GSS [440]...after installation of Hooker fenderwell headers [long tubes], 4.30 rear end gears, installation of a pinion snubber, GOODYEAR SLICKS and a supertune, they whittled the ET down to 13.14 @ 108.86 MPH."
And again, those referenced trap speeds fall right in line with the AGGREGATE of the 440 cars with production-line-stock engine internals (when adjusting for weight).
That Dart would have needed a very hot cam, stiffer valve springs, blueprinted heads PLUS those mods to run a 12.7 @ 113 MPH - just like I said. PRODUCTION LINE STOCK examples couldn't come remotely close to that - on ANY tires (although a modified factory ringer with unknown internals could).
As modified by CAR CRAFT, that stripped-to-the-bone 440 Dart was almost exactly as quick as this bone stock, 346 CID (LS1) Firebird that had AC, a stereo, sound deadening, power steering and, got 19 city/28 highway MPG, handled like it was on rails and would top 150 MPH without even trying:
Comparison Test: The 13 Quickest Cars You Can Buy - Popular Mechanics
Last edited by harddrivin1le; 03-08-2008 at 08:52 AM.
Fanatic
But in the end, you're racing a modified car against a bone-stock car.
I'm dropping out to create a company that starts with motorcycles, then cars, and forty years later signs a legendary Brazilian driver who has a public and expensive feud with his French teammate.
Fanatic
Only fair if he is going to compare with cars that have a 40-year technology advantage.But in the end, you're racing a modified car against a bone-stock car.
'76 Cadillac Fleetwood Seventy-Five Limousine, '95 Lincoln Town Car.
Fanatic
Who was driving that Dart? Homer Simpson? With a good driver and a properly running engine, that Dart should run 12s.
Stock Darts ran 13s, modified ones ran 12 and high 11s... http://www.able2know.org/forums/about.78725.40.html
The 440 Dart Ronnie Sox was running was putting out 450 hp (not really a huge amount) but was still running 11.98 1/4 miles.
Hot Rod (Dec., 1968) modded a 340 Barracuda. With a Holley 4-bbl, Edelbrock aluminum intake manifold and Hooker fenderwell headers and with street tires, it ran a best 1/4 mile of 13.33 secs @ 106.50 mph. The ignition was curved in a bit better and the vacuum advance was blocked, but those were the only mods done.
Obviously, a 440 Dart you posted, with lower gears (4.30 VS 3.91 for the Barracuda) and slicks should run better than two-tenths of one second better than the 340 'Cuda I posted.
And the test Dart I posted ran 112 mph, not 113.
'76 Cadillac Fleetwood Seventy-Five Limousine, '95 Lincoln Town Car.
Member
This 1969 issue of "Super Stock" magazine said their "stock" 1969 "test" 440 6 pack Road Runner ran a 12.91 @ 111.80 MPH (on its std. bias ply tires). Plymouth even used those results in their magazine ads, which specifically stated the car was "in absolutely pure stock condition!"
'69-1/2 REGISTRY - SUPER BEE PROMO AD
THEY LIED. Those results were actually obtained with a specially modified "press car" - a common practice of the era. PROOF:
'69-1/2 REGISTRY - SUPER BEE PROMO AD
http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/c...g?t=1204931229
Here's how the TRULY STOCK (as sold to the customer) 440 6 pack Road Runner/Super Bee went - 13.83 @ 102.42, which was typical:
MUSCLE CAR 1/4 mile shootout Dodge Ford Chevy AMC Pontiac - AOL Video
That Superbee with Driver weighed ~ 3,750 pounds.
Peak Engine HP = (102.42/234)^3 * 3,750 pounds = 314 "as installed" HP
The 440 Dart was only 200 pounds lighter (3,550 pounds with driver) than that Super Bee and actually made LESS power in theory because it wasn't a 6 pack.
Using you Mother Goose Story Book trap speed for the "stock" Dart (112 MPH):
Peak Flywheel HP = (112/234)^3 * 3,550 pounds = 389 "as installed" HP
QUESTION: How does a 440 4 barrel manage to make a whopping 75 HP more than 440 6 pack?
ANSWER: That Dart contained a MODIFIED (clandestinely by the factory) engine that was internally similar or identical to the engine installed in Road Runner described in the article above, which "coincidentally" also made about 389 "as installed" HP.
Conversely, these "Car Craft" results are RIGHT IN LINE with what one would expect from a TRULY STOCK 440 4 barrel.
Dodge Dart and Plymouth Duster - Google Book Search
Last edited by harddrivin1le; 03-09-2008 at 01:58 PM.
Fanatic
Unless you can show proof postive that the Dart which ran 12.7/112 had a modified engine, your claims are just that... claims. Just because some mags prepped/modified cars doesn't mean ALL of them did!
I already posted specs of a stock Dart 440 running low-13s; so running a 12.7 with a tire change is not unrealistic, since with the original skinny E70x14s at least 1/2 second was wasted with wheelspin (and more like a full second).
And I already showed how a 340 'Cuda could run low-13s with just a few mods. So, again, a more powerful 440 running high-12s with aftermarket (wider) tires is also not unrealistic.
'76 Cadillac Fleetwood Seventy-Five Limousine, '95 Lincoln Town Car.
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote
