Help LeonOfTheDead pick a University

[Revo]

Aah, so it is all about the one particular professor and his exams...

Leon, please tell me - if you can't follow the subject he is teaching, then who's fault is it? University "not functioning" or your brain "not functioning"? I understand he doesn't provide enough learning material. Fair enough, make your own notes. Search for additional literature. Co-operate with students who have passed the professor's exams. Do anything in order to survive in the academic jungle.

Pursuing a degree in any academic field is strictly on a voluntary basis. You either play by their rules or walk. Thus, you simply can not claim university "does not function, period".

[LeonOfTheDead]

Aah, so it is all about the one particular professor and his exams...

Leon, please tell me - if you can't follow the subject he is teaching, then who's fault is it? University "not functioning" or your brain "not functioning"? I understand he doesn't provide enough learning material. Fair enough, make your own notes. Search for additional literature. Co-operate with students who have passed the professor's exams. Do anything in order to survive in the academic jungle.

Pursuing a degree in any academic field is strictly on a voluntary basis. You either play by their rules or walk. Thus, you simply can not claim university "does not function, period".

accordingly to other friends of mine studying at other places, things like that don't happen on a regular basis as here, so it's not that I started thinking about moving as a solution to my problems with this place without a reason.
Even something like this means something to me: I study in Modena, "La Terra di Motori" (motor land) as they call it, and we are not provided by books or something, we are just supposed to making our own notes. Drakkie studies in Rotterdam the same course, and they use Bosh's manuals.

I understand that the problem can appear just as a rant, but it's something more. As I told you, all people that came here to study the automotive specialization changed their mind just because of him, so it's not just me. everyone who already passed his exam, needed at the very minimum three months, but usually even six, studying just that subject, regardless that there are other subjects to study on the same period, or in all other periods for what that it counts.

About 5 students passed the exam at the first attempt, getting their degree just some months after the time the perfect student should get his. the result: no one of them took the automotive specialization.
So it's something it's working even against the University itself, considering they think those who get their degrees first are the best we have here.

as far it regards taking my own notes, I did it, at I came up with about 180 pages, just for the classes, not considering the exercises that are obligatory for the exams, for a course that weights 5 points.
As a reference, the second exam of Math weights 6 and took 100 pages of notes.
Taking notes for two full hours at that rate is something hurts your hand, and your mind too, it even became difficult to follow another course after his. We are talking about more efforts for a single exam than for the whole thesis, or two/three exams studied together, and not even for the most important subject considering the things it contains.
Again, not just my personal opinion.

I'm not the usual dude from high school saying the world is wrong and we have to change it.
This is not something I didn't face, or that I don't understand because I don't function. It's something commonly (here) regarded as unfair and senselessly difficult. people passed this exam, and I'll pass it, but it's pointless, or they refuse to explain what the point is.

I don't know why you think I'm just complaining without a strong basis behind me. perhaps I can't explain myself better, but there isn't a single person who liked that teacher, or the way this place is managed, and not only in the usual way people complain about everything they have. Surely if all of us has just to go ahead nothing will change. and that's why things are like now since some years. Not that I really cared about "future generations", just saying it should be different, and i made my (never considered) proposals on that.

I'm pretty sure there are high possibilities to find another "him" in another place, but since I can, I'm asking for other experiences. on the other hand he is not the only reason why I would like to look for something else, he himslef raised some other issues.

For example, if a group of student goes to the Dean to talk about the issues they have with that Professor, you should expect at least some sort of explanation, even without a point, eve something like "you are wrong and we are right". while the answer happened to be "we are not going to talk about that". What I consider the wrong attitude.

Not using any kind of calculator's program is another issue, or not going to labs. Not doing anything but studying math is not wrong on itself, just a little frustrating, because basically you almost don't know what you are talking about, and eventually you are going to forget it after a couple of weeks after an exam.

There aren't serious English courses, and as a results the main part of students don't speak English at all or quite badly (something happening even at high school, unfortunately they didn't consider English as a priority at school, so it's not a case that I'm almost the only Italian here).

there aren't seminaries, meeting with people from the business work, activities to involve students, nothing.

But it's something happening somewhere else.

my weighted mean is 25 out of 30, so I'm not a genius, but a stupid neither.

so, regardless why I would like to find another place, the question is still

"what are your opinion or reviews of automotive engineering courses you know about?"

[drakkie]

Drakkie studies in Rotterdam the same course, and they use Bosh's manuals.

Not just that. We have a large list of Dutch books on economics; various Bosch books on engines; Vieweg Handbuch KFZ-technik and dozens of books written by teachers on various subjects. We also got a Dutch book on C++ programming, one Dutch about Logistics (kanban and all the japanese shit), one Dutch book on designing chip sets, one about basic Mechanical Engineering (need to find the name, its translated from german, but cant find the book), a few on Methodical Designing and that's about it so far. But remember, I havent got them all yet, im still in 2nd year unfortunately (should be in third but had a pretty big personal problem followed by a major depression and mental breakdown basically).

[f6fhellcat13]

LoTD, I agree with Revo that if you can't change your situation, bitching about it won't help.
But, you obviously can change your situation, and if it's for the better(and you have the resources to do it), you should.
If you are paying for your schooling, you should have the right to a school that suits your needs.

It'd be cool to have you here in Cali, btw.

[Cyco]

Have you done any research into what is on offer in the UK?

[willysjeep]

No matter where you go......just stay out of Africa

[LeonOfTheDead]

LoTD, I agree with Revo that if you can't change your situation, bitching about it won't help.
But, you obviously can change your situation, and if it's for the better(and you have the resources to do it), you should.
If you are paying for your schooling, you should have the right to a school that suits your needs.

It'd be cool to have you here in Cali, btw.

I think I did something more than bitching. I wrote a letter to the Dean to express what in my opinion isn't working here and that students don't like, even if they don't say it or our representatives are not keen on solve it. But he didn't even answered me, nor I noticed some sort of change.

I'm writing another one right now, hope it will be ready by the ed of the year, right now is already about 6 pages long.

Perhaps they are used to students who don't say what they would like to happen but just complain about, and so when one of them take the word, they don't listen, or don't care.

The gf talked to one of the main Professors of our course, for what regarded the possibility of coming back to California. He was supposed to know something about the US university's system, just because he doesn't loose any chance to show off the fact that he studied at the MIT and still collaborate with some Professors from the US.
Eventually, he didn't know anything, and wasn't capable of giving her some decent advice. To be honest I think he wasn't even listening. Basically she told him "I'm disappointed by this place because it's quite different from what you described me when I was about to come here", and he didn't react.

I like the idea of the automotive focused course, but this place it's quite frustrating right now.
A part of me would like to stay and take this particular degree, and then move over if I will have the possibility, but another part of me thinks that I'm going to "die" (mentally) if I stay here for another two or three years (at least).

Berkeley is interesting, the gf's brother just got his degree there and it's absolutely happy with his personal experience, but AFAIK they just have a mechanical engineering course.
and there is even something about the admission's dates, it seems it's possible to submit it only before of January 2009, but I need to check it better. just gave it a look up to know.

Have you done any research into what is on offer in the UK?

that was another option, I was just willing to have some specif name to start with from this thread.

No matter where you go......just stay out of Africa

well, I think that was out of my hypothesis, btw, what's that thing on the last two pictures?!

[blingbling]

leon if you are concerned about saving money goign to school in the united states is not going to save you money as an international student. just work the grind out in italy.

its not like enrollment has decreased dramatically since the balogna accord, so its still manageable, so manage it.

[LeonOfTheDead]

leon if you are concerned about saving money goign to school in the united states is not going to save you money as an international student. just work the grind out in italy.

its not like enrollment has decreased dramatically since the balogna accord, so its still manageable, so manage it.

I'm not concerned for the money right now.

but I didn't get the second part of your post, can you elaborate?

[blingbling]

um, can i elaborate? geez i was hoping that you would know about this more than i did however i will give it a shot

the bologna accord is a recent EU intervention that gave rise to the tertiary education that is implemented in continental europe right now. as a result the universities that have followed the old german/roman model will be essentially identical to the anglo-american one. in anglo-american type universities you get a bachelor's (4), then a masters (2), then a doctorate (2), and then potentially a post doctorate (in the purely academic sense). the years of study in brackets is how much time it takes to attain a degree for a full time student that follows the course load provided in the university calendars, and taking the months of may, june, july, and august as a break. obviously this can differ if you accelrate, decelerate your pace of study depending on your comfort level but that is the DEFAULT setting.

now in the professional sense, it is completely different and differs from coutnry to country (i am still avoiding the continental system though). engineers need a 4 year bachelors, 3 years of work experience, pass the PE test after those 3 years, and only then are you a "professional". doctors need 4 years of medical school to get their professional medicine liscence. you can get admitted to medical school right out of advanced hig hschool classes if you are a genius, or take the normal route of wasting 4 years getting a BSc in biochemistry and then writing the MCAT. for architecture, they only allow you to write the professional examination after you got your MArch (which you spend 2 years to study after getting your BArch, which was 4 years beforehand). but no work experience is needed. there are some 5 year BArch programs (not by relaxing the course load overtime, but it is actually 5 years by default, no intership or co-op education breaks either) that let you write the test right away, complicating it even further. the lack of consistency is amazing. accountants may or may not need a BComm/BBA/BSc depending on where you are.

then you have the continental system used in continental europe. which is the most confusing thing ever known to mankind and to this day i still do not understand what really happens and how it works. and ever since the bologne accord, i have given up trying to understand what the **** is actually happening but this is what i (barely) understand.

i also do not know how the system worked in ITALY but in GERMANY i am RELATIVELY familiar with how the system works starting from high school. france is different, somewhat substantially, but i think the germany and italian ones should be consistent with the rest of central europe given their closer histories with one each other. ps.... this is going to take a long time

in the old system, post-secondary students either study a science (for 4 years, leading to a diplom) or a humanity/art/socsci (for 5 years leading to a magistrar). then there are the special diploms that take 5 years for people who want to go into graduate studies. i don't know how a Diplom and a Diplom-U really differs, but the key is that this system is too sickly complicated to understand fully and is one of the main reasons why the bologna accord is being instated with such vigor. add in the fact that you can study engineering in a fachhochschule for 4 years and then enter the workforce, OR you can study engineering at universitaet for 5 years then enter the workforce OR continue graduate studies, and the complications just compounds. yes, i just had an aneurism, its bleeding now.

anyways the geniuses at bologne and everywhere else in central europe decided that you know what we are academicians, lets make this easier for the academics everywhere. we are going to addopt the Bacherlor-Master-Doctorate system instead of this confusing diplom/diplomU-diplomU/magistrar/diplom+thesis-doctorate bs. yeah it was great, ON PAPER. what the academics neglected were the professionals. they set the bachelors degree at a concrete 3 year program.

in anglo-american systems, yes you can get a bachelors degree in 3 years (with a normal aka full course load). but most people do 4 because they either want a minor (it takes 4 years even with a full course laod), bachelor with honors (takes 4 years with a full course load), or additional work with chances for graduate studies (to apply for graduate school, you must spend an extra year taking courses in the field of which you want to pursue your post-graduate studies in OR have a minor, which turns into a 4 year program anyways). on top of that, these "default" 3 year bachelors degrees are only for PURELY ACADEMIC fields of study (such as arts, sciences, social sciences, and the humanities). if you are pursuing a professional degree available to the undergraduate level (finance, engineering, interior design, journalism, social work), there is no minors, and no "honors". you study for four years, learn the stuff, and start working. simple. those who want to apply for graduate studies in finance/eng/ID/jour/SocW can do so.... after FOUURRRR years. this is the key in anglo-american systems; PROFESSIONAL BACHELOR DEGREES TAKE FOUR YEARS TO COMPLETE. only the academic bachelor degrees has a CHOICE between 3 or 4 depending on how much you want to add to your bachelor degree.

but in this new continental system, there is no such thing as a minor, there is no such thing as honors (administratively, you can still "graduate with honors" if you have good marks obviously), and those that want graduate studies simply go and apply for their masters without spending the extra time fluffing up your bachelors degree. this is great for the academics, spend 3 years and now you are a graduate student. but what abou the professionals? well essetially we got a boot in our ass. it is pretty much essentially IMPOSSIBLE to stuff everything you need to know to become a professional engineer into 3 years. since engineering is a government-controlled profession whereby your actual liscence is awarded to your by a government-ran body (as opposed to a craft, like how the engineers did it back in the day - self taught inventors essentially), they make you learn stuff like communicating with businessmen, ethics of engineering, engineering and law, and other things that sound like electives but the government want you to know "just in case". so these "electives" (aka common sense in my mind) become mandatory courses you have to take. mandatory courses that can not fit into a regular 3 year program that is already filled with more science and math that a regular academic science degree. academicians' solution to this lack of timespace for this additional information: oh well thats easy, go get a masters!

hey how about setting professional degrees at 4 years

no no no, the bologna accord is all about standization mate, no exceptions. we gotta set an example you know.

but but... but...

shhh.... dont you have some studying to do?

[f6fhellcat13]

Berkeley is interesting, the gf's brother just got his degree there and it's absolutely happy with his personal experience, but AFAIK they just have a mechanical engineering course.
and there is even something about the admission's dates, it seems it's possible to submit it only before of January 2009, but I need to check it better. just gave it a look up to know.

The UC deadline (for freshmen) was a week from yesterday (Nov. 30).
Dunno about transfers.

[cmcpokey]

go to berkeley.... we can hang out.

[LeonOfTheDead]

go to berkeley.... we can hang out.

I should take that into account...



blingbling, thank you very much for the extensive explanation. basically I knew a lot of the things you wrote, but I didn't know it was a resukt of a meeting held 30 km from here.

as you said, it didn't work at all. I wrote something about how the system works here.
in their minds, after 3 years we are ready to go say in the US and take a master. the reality is that I can go there, ask to validate my degree as a part of the 4 year bachelor, do the remaining exams, and got the degree.

taking the 3 year degree + the 2 year specialization here, it's a little different from the 4 years bachelor + 2 years of doctorate. besides, I could still take a doctorate here (don't know how much it takes, I heard of both 1 and 3 years) and mess up things further more.



btw, Berkeley is growing on me. gf's brother is basically a living ad of that place. plus the gf is going to would like to study at the Academy of Arts in San Francisco, so that would help keep us together, but that's not the main point.

There are some exams, in the automotive specialization over here, that are really attractive, on the paper, like "project of chassis" or two additional exams just about internal combustion engines, just to name the more intriguing. it's a very focused degree, completely into what that I like but...I've already explained how I feel about this place and how they are managing the whole thing.



I would like to know what is the reputation of the University of Modena in the business world. I should pick up the phone and give Luca (cordero di montezemolo) a call

[blingbling]

it's a little different from the 4 years bachelor + 2 years of doctorate. besides, I could still take a doctorate here (don't know how much it takes, I heard of both 1 and 3 years) and mess up things further more.

alright here (in the anglo maerican system) its 4 years bachelor + 2 years of MASTERS. not to be a corrective nazi or anything but just making sure.

then doctorate is another TWO years (on top of the 4+2=6 years) for full time students. but in the continental system its 5 years for that weird diplom-U degree (i think its called the specialization as you mentioned, the closest thing to the anglo-american "master" i am guessing, but for those studying the arts for 5 years stil lget this "magistrar" which is also like the anglo-american masters, whatever anyways) then 3 years more for doctorate if i believe correctly.

here are some things i wish to convey

1. if you do not mind dealing with being surrounded by nepotist snobs and want to goto school in the united, you should really consider going the a private school. its more expensive for local americans (with room and board is around 15k/year for public schools, and 45k/year for private schools), but since you are an international student you will end up spending around 45k/year anyways. it would be highly inaccurate to say the actual QUALITY of the education you are learning is better in private schools but the two main quirks with private schools is that

1a) you will get the best hookups once you graduate, careerwise
1b) smaller class sizes allow a simply better studying environment.
1c) if you are worried about partying, dont worry about the fact that private schools has less people. rich kids know how to party TRUST ME

2. i am not a relationship guru, but let me say this to you. you say that going to school and staying with your girlfriend is not a main reason but in fact it should not be a reason at all. if you two really really do indeed love each other, this "distance" thing shouldn't even be an issue. what doesn't kill you makes you stronger right? plus when you do finally meet up during a break the sex should be mind-numbingly awesome (i am assuming you are not abstinate). plus seperating yourself from her will really test the relationship as well. if it fails, or she cheats on you (or some other BS), then you know the truth. if it succeeds, then it only strengthens the relationship.

3. now about these "rankings". ok the thing with these rankings that you see circulating is this. regardless of its from the USNews, TIME magazine, the university of tsinghua, maclean's magazine, etc... these rankings are mainly based on graduate studies and academics. so what this means for you is.... not much, essentially. unless you are planning to go into graduate studies, dont worry about these "rankings".

4. it is very difficult to rank anglo-american schools with continental ones, just based on the differences outlined before. usually the big world-ranking famous lists are either for anglo-american schools only. the criterea for ranking is non-scientific enough already, so applying it to a completely different academic methodology will yield even more skewed results. but even then its generally assumed that if you study chemistry in heidelberg, business in gothenburg, or enginering in zurich (at any level; undergrad or graduate) you will get a good education. so as for where business is ranked worldly, well the school you named does not have a faculty of business so i assume how does their engineering program rank and the answer is simply i do not know.

5. in conclusion UNLESS YOU ARE DOING GRADUATE STUDIES, you are not to worry about these rankings. pick the school for other characteristics such as the city you want, the class sizes, and MOST IMPORTANTLY THE CAREER OPPORTUNITIES. companies dont care where you got your degree from unless it is some ivy league stuff, but a mechanical engineering degree from kettering university with internship experience is going to be a lot prettier to industry than a berkeley degree without internship. but for application to graduate school, a berkeley degree without internship is going to be better than a kettering one with internship. after your "immediate job after graduate" (aka your second job), it becomes only experience talk and your degree is pretty much of zero relavence.

6. i say all this considering this. you have to ask yourself whether if you want to do engineering because

6a) the CRAFT of engineering appeals to you. if you like moving things, cars in general, driving, that kind of thing.

OR

6b) the TASK of engineering appeals to you. if you like sitting in front of a monitor, doing repetitive test-runs and experiments, collecting data, balancing formulas, making sure camber angle is correct not by intuition but by statistical exhaustion.

^^^ those two types of engineers are the most successful. one is the super creative one - the other is the professional hard working one. both wil lget paid if they are good. the first one is a bit of a free radical but can have a lot of potential, the second one is a workaholic but more limited. the second one is usually better at climbing corporate ladders. the first one is better as his own entrepreneur. you get what i am saying?

in large companies they don't want their engineers to get super creative, thats the job of the business people. engineers are meant to do one thing repetitively, efficiently, well, mistake-free, and comprehensively. a lot of team work. i have specifically elected not to follow this path. i can give you some stories of people who was lured by the money (the creative path also has money, but this monotonous 6b path is much more established and concrete, less risky, and more rewarding to hard work for the uncreative) in this path and essentially was robbed of their personalities and souls if you want some. horror stories for halloween.

if you decide upon choosing this hard-working path, then it is IMPERATIVE that you pick a school that gives you best internship possibilities. if you decide upon the more creative path, it doesnt matter what school you go to. you are only going there for that piece of paper (and another piece of paper after working in 3 years) and you are only limited by your creativity not where your paper is from.

7. two schools that have little recognition publically but are very well recognized industrially are the two private schools Kettering University and Drexel University. Kettering is an american college in the strictest sense in that they do not provide graduate studies programmes. they train you to work, and do a great job at that. their mechanical engineering is geared towards the automotive industry and no other school is MORE closer tied to the automotive industry in the united states. 98% of their students are hired/contracted before graduation. not shitty jobs either

drexel university is in philadelphia is a university that allows graduate studies but for their undergraduates they have the "ultimate internship". essentially, its pretty much the best internship ever. i think there is one that lasts 24 months. and internship experience is key for wrok applications. drexel is always ranked in the top 50 every year, in every publication, for mechanical engineering, so their faculty is clearly well recognized. but no worries about that you just want a job right? that internship is amazing

the reason why drexel and kettering are not very well known is that other than drexel's business school, other programs in these two universities suck balls.

8. another thing about rankings. in the states its pretty much unanimous that the ivy league schools, MIT, CIT, and stanford are the top notch, along with the other household names like GWashington, duke, UChicago, northwestern, johnhopkins, USC etc are good schools. and for public schools their are the public iveys like the california system, UMichigan, northern carolina etc etc. so the rankings are not complete bullshit. if you get your bachelors at any one of these schools, its not so much that the stuff you learn is superiorly better, its the hookups they give you. so if you goto these schools, you learn the same shit, but you get hooked up with a job better simply because the faculty and industry are more connected, not the stuff you learn is better.

when the rankings do matter (in grauduate school), the most glaring statistic is that the MAJORITY of the ivey league's masters and doctorate students did NOT get their bachelors in ivey league schools. so it just shows that at the undergraduate level, the rankings are pretty much near bs academically. if the rankings did affect undergraduate education quality, wouldn't it not make sense that the well-ranked graduate schools would be filled with students from their own undergraduate colleges? but this is not the case, further proving that it simply is not relavent. graduate and undergraduate = not relavent. so the rankings just get you better hookups.

-end post.

[blingbling]

yeah not really the end, the reason why i went to these lengths to write it out is to prove that for most people the rankings don't mean squat if you want university just to get a job.

kettering proves that, and the origin harvard's graduate students (where they went for undergrad) prove this too.

internship quality/access is much more important, but theres no rankings for this so yeah...

but leon you have to know which type of engineer you are

1) The type that likes the money of engineering. In this case why don't you major in finance.
2) The academic engineer, who is aroused by something like this.
3) The industrious/corporate engineering, who is aroused by something like this.
4) The craftsman engineer, an engineer in the truest sense, who is aroused by something like this.

yes, it was biased, but i still think the last one was beautiful. theo jansen may not have been paid a lot for doing that but... it is his craft.

-end post, for real this time