2008 Wheels Car of the Year - what car will win?

[nota]

so it IS true that the LPG version of a car cannot have ESP because it runs on LPG?

In brief its true in regards to Ford's existing LPG system which is very unsophisticated old-tech. Its a primitive single-feeder that mixes gas & air upstream of the intake manifold, hence its inability to control ESP or traction-control functions.

However the more modern sequential-injection systems (optional on VE Commodore etc) is compatible with ESP & T/C. As too of course is the very latest Liquid Injection gas systems (which as yet are only available here via the aftermarket)

[SlickHolden]

Why is it Ford doesn't use the more modern LPG systems and end this Traction/DSC issue forever. That way all models are 5 star.. Also why can't the LPG version run the 5 speed auto ??.

That was a good forum read.. As MoSportNerd said to me. When these cars won these awards back in their day they were great cars of their time back then. Today just because we see them as shit boxes doesn't mean at the time they were.


Did anyone think the VE won the award in a pretty weak field ???.. I'd say the VE won based on range and based on it's V8 range as much. Which is why i thought the FG was a shoe in with G6E-T XR6-T.

[henk4]

In brief its true in regards to Ford's existing LPG system which is very unsophisticated old-tech. Its a primitive single-feeder that mixes gas & air upstream of the intake manifold, hence its inability to control ESP or traction-control functions.

However the more modern sequential-injection systems (optional on VE Commodore etc) is compatible with ESP & T/C. As too of course is the very latest Liquid Injection gas systems (which as yet are only available here via the aftermarket)

it is the first time I ever hear of this. Any petrol car in Holland can be fitted with an LPG installation (aftermarket) and I never heard any complaints in connection with the ESP. If GM and Ford Australia are fooling their customers in this way, well, down may they go.

[nota]

it is the first time I ever hear of this. Any petrol car in Holland can be fitted with an LPG installation (aftermarket) and I never heard any complaints in connection with the ESP.

Likewise any petrol car in Australia could be fitted with aftermarket Vapour-Injection or the very latest Liquid-Injection LPG installations, both of which presumably are compatible with ESP etc.

If GM and Ford Australia are fooling their customers in this way, well, down may they go.

But Henk ..

GM-Holden's (factory-engineered) V-I system IS compatible with ESP etc.

Ford's simple, inexpensive but old-tech (factory-engineered) system is not compatible with ESP and Ford has never claimed otherwise.
If they did this would amount to an offence under the Trade Practices Act.

How does either of the above constitute "fooling" their customers? Discuss...

[nota]

Why is it Ford doesn't use the more modern LPG systems and end this Traction/DSC issue forever.

Also why can't the LPG version run the 5 speed auto ??.

It has purely been due to FoA finding itself inextricably stuck (as in locked) into the middle of an extremely long running legal dispute regarding LPG injection, between a highly reputable Dutch company, and a certain small-time Oz Company of which I have very little respect. Although initally on a broader scale, AFAIK this dispute has eventually boiled to which company owns the Australian patent, and therefore the AU licensing rights, for gas injection to FoA

Its a very legal situation of which i am no expert, and it has received little publicity. For a legal disclaimer I could be wrong on all the above (and I have misplaced some of my records) so don't quote me or cite this as accurate. But I think this is in essence is what its all about. You know my enthusiasm for LPG, and a mate and I have been following this saga with interest since the early 1990s when I think the AU company was called Docklands but it has since been renamed, IIRC more than once.

IIRC this situation began maybe 15 years ago and would have been dragging on in the courts for at least for all of this century. To date I think it has basically crucified Ford's hopes of offering an advanced OE LPG system for their cars. Which they intended to do looooong ago.

I would be grateful for any further input or info on this subject...

[motorsportnerd]

Difficult to argue with the 1st para logic in post # 38 of your Ford-forum link

ESP can not be the reason that the FG did not/ will not win, ESP is a initial part of the criteria, if a vehicle model does not pass the initial criteria, it is out immediately. The FG was not ruled out in the initial criteria, so ESP can not be the reason it may fail.

As for the FG not having ESP, ESP is standard on the FG Falcon, however, if the E-Gas option is selected ESP is then unavailable, this technicality is how FG could/ Should pass this hurdle

This is true - despite not having ESP on the E-Gas version, the FG Falcon was indeed eligible. Whether it would have been eligible if the new rules requiring ESP across the range that will be in place for next year's award had already been in use, is debateable.
The clause mentioned above would be the technicality on which it could have passed.
Having said that, it is well known that any vehicle without ESP was going to have very little chance of winning the award. I, probably like most people, assumed it wouldn't affect the Falcon since ESP is standard and is only deleted if one chooses the E-Gas option.
The lack of ESP may not have been the reason the Falcon did not make the top 4. For the exact reason, I'll have to read the magazine tomorrow.

[motorsportnerd]

It has purely been due to FoA finding itself inextricably stuck (as in locked) into the middle of an extremely long running legal dispute regarding LPG injection, between a highly reputable Dutch company, and a certain small-time Oz Company of which I have very little respect. Although initally on a broader scale, AFAIK this dispute has eventually boiled to which company owns the Australian patent, and therefore the AU licensing rights, for gas injection to FoA

This article highlights the problems of the E-Gas Falcon: Wheels - ULP v LPG - Three car comparison.

The last line suggests that Ford may be able to develop a more modern system in the near future. Also, I remember hearing/reading rumours that the E-Gas version would get the 5-speed auto and ESP before too long.

[fpv_gtho]

The irony with that article is despite the Accord winning against the gas cars, initial tests of the FG at launch against such cars as the Accord, VE and Aurion had the petrol FG pulling better economy than the Accord even with its cylinder shutoff.

[charged]

I thought the latest falcon would have vsi, not the old mixer.

The nephew wont fit any falcon after BA or any with traction control with a mixer as the esp/TC causes the LPG to backfire and usually blows the airbox to bits. The VSI setup works well same performance and fuel economy but is expensive compared to a mixer type system

[motorsportnerd]

Just announced. The winner of the 2008 Wheels Car of the Year is the Honda Accord Euro.
So, last night's ACA did give a big clue.

[henk4]

But Henk ..

GM-Holden's (factory-engineered) V-I system IS compatible with ESP etc.

Ford's simple, inexpensive but old-tech (factory-engineered) system is not compatible with ESP and Ford has never claimed otherwise.
If they did this would amount to an offence under the Trade Practices Act.

How does either of the above constitute "fooling" their customers? Discuss...

Fooling customers means for me that you are offering an outdated technology with serious consequences, while the aftermarket offers the technology which works properly. Just like offering a one speed windshield wiper, knowing that aftermarket equipment can turn it into three speed/any interval machine.
I thought I read that GM offered the same "proper" technology as Ford, but obviously not so.
Anyway, all LPG equipment sold here is aftermarket I think, but being of the diesel faction I never seriously looked at it.

[motorsportnerd]

Full story on the Accord Euro's win here: Wheels - Honda Accord Euro wins <i>Wheels</i> Car of the Year 2008.

This is the first FWD family sedan to win the award since 1996 when the Mitsubishi Magna won.

[Ferrer]

Fooling customers means for me that you are offering an outdated technology with serious consequences, while the aftermarket offers the technology which works properly. Just like offering a one speed windshield wiper, knowing that aftermarket equipment can turn it into three speed/any interval machine.
I thought I read that GM offered the same "proper" technology as Ford, but obviously not so.
Anyway, all LPG equipment sold here is aftermarket I think, but being of the diesel faction I never seriously looked at it.

Morgan is really fooling costumers then...

[nota]

Fooling customers means for me that you are offering an outdated technology with serious consequences, while the aftermarket offers the technology which works properly. Just like offering a one speed windshield wiper, knowing that aftermarket equipment can turn it into three speed/any interval machine.
I thought I read that GM offered the same "proper" technology as Ford, but obviously not so.
Anyway, all LPG equipment sold here is aftermarket I think, but being of the diesel faction I never seriously looked at it.

As explained in my (later) post #125, Ford have been unable to offer a more modern LPG system. Or are you saying Ford should have simply abandoned the LPG market altogether, comprising a significant proportion of Falcon sales including repeat customers?

In any case it is the customers choice on whether or not to buy Ford's old-tech OE E-Gas, which btw despite 'serious consequences' still functions good enough for it to be chosen over aftermarket kits (from what I have seen) in the majority of Oz taxis - Ford having a stranglehold on the cab market. Quite a few Falcon E-Gas fleet sales too

No Ford's E-Gas is not the best system, far from it. However it is the cheapest (iirc $700 vs Holden's V-I on-debut price of $3900) which is an additional factor in the cost-benefit equasion

Overall I think its been a real shame our longest-term and most committed-to-gas car company (and still the only one that OE fits LPG) has been prohibited from offering a more advanced LPG system, despite their good intent at being market-leader in this regard, tracing back many years

[IBrake4Rainbows]

Congratulations to the Accord Euro, despite not being my Choice.....

I guess it makes sense just looking at the contenders - 95% as good as an A4 for less cost, Efficient over a Mazda 6, and not a lumber 4WD that would be considered somewhat irresponsible by the greenie weenies who have infiltrated everything.

So Yeah, they finally seperated the Accord & the 6, it seems.