More Bad News For Toyota

[Matra et Alpine]

Then again most UKer would have no idea anyway, my friend in UK for work says this year's snow storm pretty much crippled the country....welcome to our world...lol

Your friend is from London or Essex
Scotland, North England, Wales get that weather regular and worse.
We know how to cope.
What DID catch them out this year was we'd had 10 fairly unusual years of not a lot of snow and so all the stocks and equipment had been allowed to drop below sustainable levels.
We have roads in Scotland which are closed for long periods as they just can't be kept cleared. Our MAJOR ROUTE to Inverness is regularly blocked despite having snow ploughs running 24/7. Even the English visitors are shocked when told that the 12 foot poles with red tops along the sides of the road are to ensure the snow ploughs know where to go when the snow's heavy !!
Mind you not just visitors, we have lots of "townies" who've never been out of Edinburgh or Glasgow and dont' know that you cannot drive an ordinary car up a hill in a foot of snow ... but insist in trying and blocking the roads for hours/days. STUPIDITY. Even had some arguing with us at the foot of a local hill when we were telling people to turn back ... she had a 4X4 and it could make it. ... on ordinary street tyres too we had to dig her out

[RacingManiac]

He does live in the Silverstone area(works for Wirth Technology). So that's part of it....

[coolieman1220]

Coolie, I'd suggest your response is evidence why Americans shouldn't be allowed fast cars

You shodul NOT be driving it so that the traction control comes on.

When it beeps, you ARE doing something totally wrong on public roads.
Your rear "sliding a little" is a DANGEROUS situation and shold NOT be done where others are put at risk by the drivers bad driving.

THE most important fast driver skill is knowing when NOT to drive fast

Lawyers and public seem out to destroy car companies the way they destroyed drugs.
You'll soon hear about a car, get all it's specs, WANT IT DESPERATELY, but wont' get released until 10 years of testing to ensure the lawyers can't sue.

US public shold decide NOW if they want cars to go that way.
It's bad enough for you guys that Ford et al woudl give you 2 year old European designs. At this rate it will be 10 year old. Imaging driving around in a 2000 Ford Fusion and tell me that's what you want.

It's decisiion time

PS: and please drive more carefully on public roads and with consideration for others.

Matra, i'd suspect your response is one based upon total ignorance. you're quick to make assumptions. your first statement is ludicrous, we shouldn't be allowed fast cars? everyones car is fast its just who is willing to push their car faster. here in the states over 70mph is too fast and a speed limit. in fact most people never take their vehicle over 100mph.

I don't drive to make my traction control come on all the time. the two times it has ever come on was driving in the snow. and who ever said i was on a public road? what if i were in an empty parking lot or off road? As a matter of fact one of the times it was activated was when i was trying to wrestle it out of some snow. The back had to slide out so it could get traction to get me out of where i was. if there was no one around and i didn't hit anything then i am endangering no one. also i like to find the limit to my vehicle so i know how far i can push it before it is unsafe. this is good to know for emergency maneuvers or anything of that sort. whats the point of having a performance vehicle if you never use it for what it is designed to do? i do not drive to have my traction control to come on. however the suspension design & geometry is rather poor for handling on a regular surface. imagine it in snow.

RM ... driving SLOWER has even higher merit

Ferrer, good point, stability control is usually set up for tarmac.
Rougher roads are going to cause the tyres to break traction more often and have the computer try to compensate. If course, for SAFETY, you should drive slower.
For example, your braking distance will be a lot LOT further on that surface

The RX-8 stability control is an example of what "over confidence" can lead less experienced drivers to do. With the tight LSD the car will often trigger the traction control when taking away at T-junctions. We ALWAYS tell owners to leave it on. THose who switch it off "too early" usually end up in a ditch, or facing on-coming traffic with a munch scream look SHould we complain that it triggers on so many occasions ? OR be thankful there are less wrecked RX-8s in the hands of normal drivers

The only real complaint we've had with 8s is in snow. The traction control and the stability control work against each other making it impossible to drive on ANY slope

I've driven my buddies RX-8 and it will kick the rear out if you shift from first to second. which is not a fun feeling. i never drove it with traction off and i advise him the same. my G35 i never ever turn my VDC off unless im stuck in some snow or trying to get up my driveway. its far too dangerous with a light RWD. the back will swing out on you.

traction control is a great feature that i think should be standard on all cars. it does work.

[Matra et Alpine]

Matra, i'd suspect your response is one based upon total ignorance.

Youa re entitled to your opinion sir.

you're quick to make assumptions

Not usually, considered thought on point is the norm.

your first statement is ludicrous, we shouldn't be allowed fast cars?

NEVER said that.

don't drive to make my traction control come on all the time. the two times it has ever come on was driving in the snow. and who ever said i was on a public road? what if i were in an empty parking lot or off road?

Awfully defensive
Dont' take it personally.
You'll read I was raising as a general comment.
If you had EXPLAINED you were off road then it is totally different to the discussion on over aggresive stability/traction control on roads.

then i am endangering no one. also i like to find the limit to my vehicle so i know how far i can push it before it is unsafe. this is good to know for emergency maneuvers or anything of that sort. whats the point of having a performance vehicle if you never use it for what it is designed to do?

Absolutely and as you'll read in all of my posts, finding out is for OFF of public areas and in a controlled situation - eg track or off road area.

i do not drive to have my traction control to come on. however the suspension design & geometry is rather poor for handling on a regular surface. imagine it in snow.

None of them work in snow on street tyres. Thems the rules of physics

I've driven my buddies RX-8 and it will kick the rear out if you shift from first to second.

On the straight ? Tell your buddy to get his car to a garage and get the suspension alignment checked.
If on a cruve, then let me be a "guide" and recommend NOT changing gear mid corner on throttle

traction control is a great feature that i think should be standard on all cars. it does work.

It does what it is designed to do, but coming back to my main points.
Drivers who let it come in lots to cope with the speeds being driven are BAD and will ultimately have an accident whcih may well include others.

[Ferrer]

Ferrer, good point, stability control is usually set up for tarmac.
Rougher roads are going to cause the tyres to break traction more often and have the computer try to compensate. If course, for SAFETY, you should drive slower.
For example, your braking distance will be a lot LOT further on that surface

The RX-8 stability control is an example of what "over confidence" can lead less experienced drivers to do. With the tight LSD the car will often trigger the traction control when taking away at T-junctions. We ALWAYS tell owners to leave it on. THose who switch it off "too early" usually end up in a ditch, or facing on-coming traffic with a munch scream look SHould we complain that it triggers on so many occasions ? OR be thankful there are less wrecked RX-8s in the hands of normal drivers

The only real complaint we've had with 8s is in snow. The traction control and the stability control work against each other making it impossible to drive on ANY slope

Indeed, bumps make the electronics come on much more often, even though in truth nothing would truly happen. I guess this due to the bad rep rear wheel drives car got in the 80s and 90s, and therefore when technology advanced enough they decided to better be safe then sorry.

Altough usually all rear wheel drive cars I've driven are usually quite noble on the limit. I guess that with a tricky car the situation could really change.

[LeonOfTheDead]

personally i feel like the media is out to get toyota....
they say they're happy that they addressed this problem quickly as opposed to their other ones.
i think the media is hungry to see toyota fail.

This.

[IBrake4Rainbows]

It's a false security blanket, these safety aids.

The user of the vehicle, if improperly trained, is still the meatbag controlling the equipment. Trusting your vehicle is fine, but do you trust yourself to react in time?

Having controlled fun is all well and good, but the point stands - if you're engaging the systems, you're not driving within the limits of adhesion, and you're doing it wrong on public roads.

[LeonOfTheDead]

Lexus GX 460: How Toyota Tried to Head Off Trouble - Driver's Seat - WSJ

[Ferrer]

It's a false security blanket, these safety aids.

The user of the vehicle, if improperly trained, is still the meatbag controlling the equipment. Trusting your vehicle is fine, but do you trust yourself to react in time?

Having controlled fun is all well and good, but the point stands - if you're engaging the systems, you're not driving within the limits of adhesion, and you're doing it wrong on public roads.

Even the best of drivers sometimes get it wrong. This safety aids will help you the moment you misjudge certain conditions.

Imbecile drivers will still crash though. Safet driver aids or not. Becasue, they can't change the laws of physics.

[clutch-monkey]

It's a false security blanket, these safety aids.

this.
if people feel completely safe in their vehicle, with the knowledge that something will bail them out of trouble, they're going to do do something stupid.

[Matra et Alpine]

Altough usually all rear wheel drive cars I've driven are usually quite noble on the limit. I guess that with a tricky car the situation could really change.

Tyre differences can bring big problems.
So we add "better" tyres so we have better grip but that means they will be less progressive at release and so be more susceptable to snap oversteer.
Manufacturers match tyres to suspension to traction control for safety and performance. We then screw up the first by seeking more of the second.
Now put that decision into the hands of a skip wearing chav who wants his Corsa to look "good" and drives fast to show off to his/her mates

Imbecile drivers will still crash though. Safet driver aids or not. Becasue, they can't change the laws of physics.

My worry is all these aids have drivers drive faster in the beliefe it IS "safe" vbecause the car copes. UNTIL the day it doesn't and then people die/lose limbs, serious injury

this.
if people feel completely safe in their vehicle, with the knowledge that something will bail them out of trouble, they're going to do do something stupid.

Totally agree !
Volvo drivers around the world are the proof

[IBrake4Rainbows]

Volvo drivers know full well they're going to crash, so they get as much padding around them as possible to keep them safe

It's the crowd of people I run into I feel sorry for.

[Ferrer]

Now put that decision into the hands of a skip wearing chav who wants his Corsa to look "good" and drives fast to show off to his/her mates

It seems like the solution is the complete removal of twats from driving.

[LeonOfTheDead]

the solution is the complete removal of twats.

Edited for the truth.

[cargirl1990]

People could come up with many theories as to why Toyota is in the dumps.
- possible sabotage within the company
- American auto manufacturers are/could have something to do with it.
Ya never know...