Impreza WRX and Lancer Evo, Sports Cars or not?

[KnifeEdge_2K1]

Whoa, what happened while i was away!

the point i was making is that you'd be better off investing your hard earned dosh on a car like the Audi Quattro Coupe than on the latest MistuBaru Impcer Evo Sti.

Take this as my opinion and at face value, I do agree that it is unfair trying to compare stuff like the RS2 to the Impreza Hatch, but i happen to think that neither of them is a sportscar in the strictest sense, as defined by the dictionary meaning a bit further back. Both of these cars fall into the Sports Saloon Catagory. Simple.

I might have lost a few people with my comment, so i'll clarify, the Audi Quattro, the car, not the drive system, will always be more important than a Impreza or a Lancer, Simply because it's a monumental acheivement. The quattro is a sports car because it fills the brief, because it's a great achievement, rahter than Evo's being carbon copies of the last one, plus a fantastic wing. It's just a personal bias.

hmm i understand what you're sayin but i still believe the evo and impreza are sports cars (not in the strict litteral way though). its just they are after all part of the wrc, im not going to say that a ford focuz is a sports car (unless its the rs) but there is really no major difference between the race and road version unlike the 206 or focus rs. another reason is just pure performance, you just cant get stats and real world results like this at the price they're offered at. in the real world, not a perfect race track i believe that they are faster than any porsche ferrari or lambourgini. just for the record i believe the audi quattro (old school) is a monumental .. monument in history of cars. without it, its doubtful that other companies would have produced all wheel drive cars for the rallying world (including mitsubishi and subaru).

[IBrake4Rainbows]

You'll find cars like the Quattro are quite good at real world driving as well as racetrack or Rallying, they do have a lot of turbo lag, mind.

you can get a used car at the same price which is comparable, possibly even better in performance, than the Evo or STi. We don't get Evo's in Aus, we do get STi's, they retail around Au$57,000. you can get a Saab 9-3 for the same price, which will hold it's value longer, have more street cred and in the end be the better buy? Well Duh, say the STi and i will consider you a moron.

To say that the Imprezas and Evo's are more rally bred than say, the Focus RS or 206/307 is a bit rich. Peugeot and Ford have been in the rallying game longer than Subaru and Mitsubishi combined, and to say that the tech they use is more attuned to rallying is fair, but handling, ride, reliability and mechanical toughness has all been fine tuned by these companies long before Mitsubishi went and blitzed the late 90's.

in the end the Evo and STi are not sports cars, they are merely performance cars, wrapped in a sedan skin, and dolled up to appeal to those who dream of one day affording a so-called exotic. I think CAR magazine sumed it up when they say "Disposable thrills".....

[KnifeEdge_2K1]

You'll find cars like the Quattro are quite good at real world driving as well as racetrack or Rallying, they do have a lot of turbo lag, mind.

you can get a used car at the same price which is comparable, possibly even better in performance, than the Evo or STi.

To say that the Imprezas and Evo's are more rally bred than say, the Focus RS or 206/307 is a bit rich. Peugeot and Ford have been in the rallying game longer than Subaru and Mitsubishi combined

there is no way in hell the road going versions of the focus and 206/306 rally cars can beat a road going evo or sti. its just unheard of, also if you think an old quattro can beat a new evo ... i have a 5th gear video you might wanna watch, its the one where tiff and vicki race, tiff in an old quattro while vicky is in an evo 6. tiff cut the corners and he still lost

[IBrake4Rainbows]

Oh boy, i sense fanboy.

Granted, roadgoing Focus' and 206's will never beat an Evo or STi, but if we follow the guidelines set down by you defining a sportscar, they are sports cars also.

and if we are only worried about speed, then i guess you are right, but as it stands we worry about other things.
Resale Value: How much will i get if i sell it tommorrow.
Fragility: Will It Break tommorrow?
Cred: Will i look the biz if i buy it?

The fact is, it's unfair to compare a 15/20 year old car with one which has only recently been released, the newer one will always win,b ut the fact remains: The older one has stood the test of time, will the Evo, or will it go the way of things like the 280Zx and crumble......

[motorsportnerd]

u really gotta be more specific about the Audi quattro, almost all audis have quattro all wheel drive, and an evo will beat anything short of the A8 and since the A8 is a 4 door wouldnt that make it a saloon as well? what exactly makes the quattro a sports car and the evolution or sti not one? cuz to my knowledge all 3 have had their reign in the rally field.

OK, to all out there. Let's get this one straight once and for all.
If you talk about an Audi Quattro with a capital "Q", you're talking about the original Audi Quattro.
All other Audi's using the awd quattro system have a lower case "q". As in Audi 90 quattro.
That tends to get forgotten today.

[motorsportnerd]

If a WRX or Mits Lancer Evo are sports cars, then so are the Audi S4, Audi RS6, HSV Commodore GTS, Ford Falcon GT, BMW M5, Mercedes E500, Jaguar S-Type R, Honda Accord Type R, etc.

All the above are, by definition, sports sedans/saloons.

[Cotterik]

I am backing Ralf for the win, he's always been fast there and won the Nurburgring last year so as long as he unlocks his awesome qualifying skills which we all know he has, and comes on top of Montoya in qualifying, a front row start for him could seal the victory. If not, Button or Alonso could be in with a shot, Montoya is not motivated enough this year and you can never rule out Mike.

haha erm, wrong thread!! sorry bout that Evos and WRX's are sports cars.

[sandwich]

man, i'm having a hard time following the logic of this thread.

Let's clear one thing up first...The new Evo did indeed beat the old Sport Quattro, but had tiff actually been able to drive, it may have been different. You can visibly see the tail come out several times around each corner. He's driving the short wheelbase, which I have heard can be a challenge for any driver. I would have liked to see the drivers switch, so we can get an even test. A bad driver makes a good car slow!
(am I an obvious enough quattro fan?)

Now, let's go back to the question of whether these are sports cars. Well, they are stiff, uncomfortable and fast as hell. They are also AWD and sedan bodies. Why can't a sports car break the rules? Have any of you ever been in one? I would bet you would find the ride easily more stiff than a z4 or etc, and these two are quicker too. I don't see how you can discredit these based on stubbornness. Prove to me that a real sports car, let's say the exige (for the sake of hardtop), is quicker, stiffer, and gives you a rawer driving experience. I think you'll find these cars are far more similar than originally thought. The WRXEVOs simply provide more usefulness. Try taking two friends out in an Exige...

Answer me this, what prevents a car from being a sports car? Is it weight, ammenities, comfort? Performance? Would you call a murc a sports car?

I would not call an RS4 or above a sports car, they are certainly fast, but err too far on the side of comfort and class, rather than pure performance and agility. I do agree that most roadsters are indeed sports cars, they give you a feeling of being connected to the road, regardless of power or storage space, they make you feel like you are driving. It is certainly a pleasurable experience to drive my dad's triumph, even though it only pushes 140/160hp, it is still a fun car to drive.

Now I'm just rambling, but I would imagine driving an EVO would be even more exciting than the Triumph, simply because with all that power and grip you can drive faster and closer to the edge. The triumph is nice, but it doesn't have nearly enough power to bring about "white knuckle" driving.

[Matra et Alpine]

...He's driving the short wheelbase, which I have heard can be a challenge for any driver.

Unlike ANY other car iN Group B the Quattro needed a unique driving style.
The S2 only amplified the inadequacies of the Audi centre diff. I agree that
Needell would unlikely be able to drive an S2 at anyqhere near it's limit. It took a skillful driver AND a lot of training. Before Audi allowed a rally team to use an S2 they had to go to Ingolstadt to be taught how to steer the car. It is something totally different and required precision in timing unecesary in cars with variable centre diffs. Modern drivetrains take all that away from the driver and allow a team to setup the diffs to be optimum for the conditions. So VBH had a LOT of extra help and TIff and too little time at thewheel and training from an expert.

Now, let's go back to the question of whether these are sports cars.

I'll digress for 2 seconds in my role as English-teacher for UCP .... the word ALMOST, Today's lesson for knife-edge is to look up the dictionary and read that it has to be close to complete to be 'almost'. It's less than half the range that are Quattro !!
If you'd done your homework then you could have corrected the misconception YOU stated that you had the 'impression' they were nearly all 4WD. Check out www.audi.com will enlighten. This is left as homework for the student.
In their own launch material in 1980, Audi described it as "four wheel drive".
Marketing has since re-quoted the English to avoid confusion with clunky SUVs
Depreciation v. investment.
With most new cars you LOSE money, it's a matter of how MUCH you can handle before crying. So it's nothing like stocks - unless it's a REAL classic car.
And here endeth the lesson
PS: I've had a bad weekdn, spent most of it repairing rally cars to stay in the event. For the jow of UCP a report will come soon. But bed first

Now I'm just rambling, but I would imagine driving an EVO would be even more exciting than the Triumph, simply because with all that power and grip you can drive faster and closer to the edge. The triumph is nice, but it doesn't have nearly enough power to bring about "white knuckle" driving.

Having just spent 14 hours in the last 36 in a post-historic MGB GT on an event then I'll confirm waht you imagine. Yes a modern rally car is faster, more predictable and easier to handle.
BUT, older cars with less power require LOTS more skill and concetration to take the same stages. I'm talking clubman/natinoal stages and not WRC stages which with a few exceptiosn don't involved REAL twisty sections.
Taking a blind summit with a 200' drop with a car with drum brakes is sure to generate the "white knuckles"

[KnifeEdge_2K1]

oi im just gonna give up, that was like 2 pages of posts since my last one ...
the thing is, i consider anything thats reasonably fast, has a racing heritage (20 years ago doesnt count), or feels like its a sports car (this is subjective i know) a sports car. like the corrolla my sister has to me is a sports car, dont ask me why

[motorsportnerd]

I suspect that many people interchange "Performance Car" and "Sports Car". Thats fair enough. There is no doubt an Impreza or Evo are performance cars.
However, your average purist won't view performance car and sports car as the same thing. They'll more likely use the definition provided by Matra earlier in the thread to define a sports car.

Personally, I consider "Performance Car" to be the overall broad catagory under which all serious performance/sporting cars can be labelled. Each car then fits within sub catagories for super cars, GTs, hot hatches, sports sedans, sports cars, etc. Each of the sub catagories would then have pretty strict definitions about what cars qualify. Of, course, there will always be cars which are hard to classify, or may fit within more than one catagory - such as the Audi Quattro (GT or Sports Coupe?) and Holden Monaro (sports or luxury coupe? or since based on a sedan - sports sedan?). However, imo, there is no confusion with the Impreza and Evo. The have 4 doors, are based on family sedans, so would be sports sedans.

The whole thing is somewhat subjective, so those that wish to view Subaru Imprezas and Evos as "sports cars", are welcome to do so as far as I'm concerned.

[IBrake4Rainbows]

Dear god, what have i started......

Right, here is my thoughts on the issue.

I have said that i don't believe Evos/Sti's are Sports cars, they are, as MoSpoNerd has said, Performance cars.

Cars which have a bias to luxury, such as the Audi RS range, are Performance cars, simply because they are not out and out sports cars, and not engineered for that purpose.

Hero models, based on humble bodyshells, A'la Evo, Monaro and Impreza are not. They are merely a variant of a range, and are also Performance cars.

Grand Tourers, Like the Bentley Continental Gt, are Performance cars, simply because the excess amount of wieght they carry will blunt most handling opportunities. Again Performance car.

No, the list of Sports cars.

Cars which are engineered first and foremost as a performance machine, such as the Lotus Elan, Elise and Mazda MX-5, are sports cars.

Car's that are built for a certain sporting class, and have to homologate some road cars, are included, this discounts 206's and Xsaras, but includes Quattro Sports, Rs200's, 205 T16's, Toyota Gt1's, etc.

And supercars are Included, simply because they sacrifice so much in the pursuit of speed and handling bliss.

Argue over this all you want, this is just my opinion.

[sandwich]

Well, you've just proved my point as well. The Sti and Evo are homologation versions of their rally counterparts, therefore, they are indeed sports cars according to your definition. I mean, the quattro sport was essentially a very reworked quattro (SW/B, Carbon body, aluminum engine) but nevertheless was similar in design to the Ur-Quattro (awd, 5 cyl 2.2, turbo). The same could be said about the Evo, it is a distinctly re-worked Lancer, with AWD etc. It could be said that it even differs in more ways than the Sport/UR as it switches from FWD to AWD. Again, this is open to interpretation.

I think we need to step back and define sports cars as a whole.

What do they need?
What shouldn't they have?
What can you get away with?
What are the limits?

[Coventrysucks]

Well, you've just proved my point as well. The Sti and Evo are homologation versions of their rally counterparts, therefore, they are indeed sports cars according to your definition.

No...

The Evo and the WRX are boring saloons that have been made with a mind to rallying.

They are part of a mass production "range" - the Lancer and the lesser Impreza's are supposed to be family cars, with the WRX and Evo fitted with 4wd, more powerful engines, trick differentials, yaw control, vast spoilers - under all of that they are still family cars.

The Audi Quattro was developed soley as a rally car, as are the RS200, 205 T16, Lancia 037, Escort Coswort etc.

They never intended to make "normal" versions of these cars for your gran to drive, like the Lancer and Impreza.

[Falcon500]

No...

The Evo and the WRX are boring saloons that have been made with a mind to rallying.

They are part of a mass production "range" - the Lancer and the lesser Impreza's are supposed to be family cars, with the WRX and Evo fitted with 4wd, more powerful engines, trick differentials, yaw control, vast spoilers - under all of that they are still family cars.

The Audi Quattro was developed soley as a rally car, as are the RS200, 205 T16, Lancia 037, Escort Coswort etc.

They never intended to make "normal" versions of these cars for your gran to drive, like the Lancer and Impreza.

I am actually fully agreeing with you...and if by these definitions knifeedge why cant a Focus RS be a sports car...why cant a Cosworth Sierra be a sports car they where used in raceing in exactly the same way as all the others you mention (except on tarmac) hell so that must make the commadore group A and the rovers and the jaguar sports cars too based on boring saloons and modified so their easily hamoliglated.....