Pro and Contra about Chris Bangle at BMW

[lutz]

Hi,
First of all I'm a new member and I'm glad to be here.

I like controversial discussions. It would be cool, if someone could share his opinion about BMW's design. I'm the opposite of Chris Bangle in person. But I respect his huge success and the BMW fans who like his work.

Because of my disappointment of the new BMW models, especially the 6, I did design my own anti-Bangle BMW. Some poeple would love it, some people don't.
Check the pictures.

[SPHFerrari]

VERY NICE! those are very well done and i love the red M6 concept. however, i dont think those qualify as anti-bangle designs. they are very close to his style and far closer to bangle's designs than the former model styles. i do not think bangle messed up the 6 series. pictures do not do it justicde, in person it is an extremely beautiful car. the 7 and the 5 have also grown on me, even beings an E38 7 series owner.

summary: nice pics, but they arent anti-bangle and the 6 is great as is

[Hispano Swissa]

I find that the new 5er and 7er lost some of their aesthetic harmony, but since they do look more distinctive (Cadillac seems to be walking a similar path with its F-117-inspired designs) perhaps the styling objective was for them to be noticed (whether positively or not), it's quite a change for BMW which had previously shunned the whole “hey lookit me!” approach.
On the other hand, the new 6er retains is quite harmonious (particulary in profile view) so perhaps Mr. Bangle is learning.
In my opinion, when it comes to luxury car design, the eighties belonged to Mercedes-Benz, the nineties belonged to BMW; as for the noughties it's still too early for me to form an opinion.

[SL500]

what program did you use for those?
maya or 3d studio max?
those are very nice,good job

[Coventrysucks]

On the other hand, the new 6er retains is quite harmonious (particulary in profile view) so perhaps Mr. Bangle is learning.

Bangle didn't design the 6er, Adrian Van Hooydonk did.

The whole arguement is pointless, since Bangle no longer actively designs the cars, he oversees the entire BMW design group, which consists of BMW Automotive, BMW M, BMW Motorrad, MINI and Rolls Royce.
Van Hooydonk, who has had a hand in the design of the 7er, 6er, Z4 and X3 is head of the BMW automotive department.

Bangle, uses alot of tight lines in his designs (like the CS1 and X coupe concepts) with the sharp creases that make up the "flame surfacing", and tight lines defining details such as grills, light clusters, and the DLO profiles.

Van Hooydonk uses a softer approach - the more fluid flanks of the 6er for example, and the looser overall appearence of the 6er and 7er in particular.

Lutz's design is quite like Van Hooydonk's approach, being slightly more subtle and with less detailing than Bangle tends to incorperate, it makes it more relaxing to look at than a Bangle design.

I think that Bangle's appointment is a decision that BMW thought long and hard about, and they wouldn't have kept him on, or promoted him to his current position if they didn't think the direction that he is taking BMW's design language was appropriate to the BMW brand.

He has moved BMW into a position of avant-garde, where they weren't before, and has opened the range up to younger people.
Before Bangle, BMW's approach to design was heavily based in evolution, and was going no where, now they have a focus and a fresh start.

They, alongside Renault, and a few others like Smart, are opening up to the fact that cars can be like the futuristic concepts turned out by their designers, rather than the world of the nineties, when bumpers, wing mirrors, door handles etc were added as an afterthought, and bland and innoffensive reigned.

[mawi427]

there was an interview with adrian van hooydonk in the July R&T on pg 57 for all of u subscribers.

R&T: Does being controversial bother you?
AVH: First of all, what is controversial and who decides what is controversial? I guess you and your journalist colleagues are in charge of that...but if we take sales numbers as a yardstick, our design is not controversial. Every year each of our models has sold more. If that is the yardstick, there is no controversy because we find more clients each year.

that is an excerpt of the interview

[Doctor_Gonzo]

I thhink that new 6er and 5er are nice. When i saw the fotos of them, i thought they are ugly and uncompletely designed, but when i saw these cars real i changed my opinion. But i don't like 7er. Waitong for restyling.

[IBrake4Rainbows]

My only problem with them is that Claus Luthe worked so hard to get BMW to a pinnacle in the design world: Classic when released, and that's not easy to do.

then the whole business with his son, and he's gone from the top job. Wolfgang Reitzle spends the next 2 years searching for a replacement. He finds Bangle at Fiat. and low and behold, in comes the new era at BMW.

Bangle can do normal design, he had a partial hand in the E46 3-series, the E39 5-Series, and various facelifts. Then he swung his plan into action: Modernise BMW.

Now most modern design is engineered to shock, and BMW is no exception. If your not talking about it, then he's screwed up. Now it's Adrian Van Hooydonk's turn, he is attempting to bring Fluidity to the design language Bangle worked so hard at, the 7-Series is all hard edges, the 6-series is more Scimitar in having round edges (if that makes sense, think Ford's New Edge with more oomph.)

I like the New 6-series, from the front it's fantastic, from the side less so, from the back unappealing. It's like the old Porsche Deck Spoiler, only actually integrated into the car's overall shape.

Whether or not BMW's today will be percieved design classics in 10/20years is another matter entirely, but from what i see it's being different for the sake of being different. not the never-an-unnecessary-line-in-the-shape design of old. it's just too busy, your eye is drawn all over the car! too much detail, albeit mostly pleasant, will always end up looking garish.

[lutz]

Yes, von Hooydonk did it. But the desicion makers are responsible for all the production cars. When everybody is talking (as we are too) about the new looking BMW's, even BMW gets more attention. So BMW is hip.

BMW's sales are growing, that's right, no doubt. Porsches Cayenne has so many orders that the production plant is working on the limit, exceedingly. But the Cayenne is ugly, for my taste. It is a matter of taste.

On the other hand, they're spending millions of dollars into the marketing and PR -- so many customers must believe these cars are really nice. Of course that's just my opinion. And I like all of your comments, especially this:

"...nice pics, but they arent anti-bangle..."

Maybe, BMWs new design is particular innovative and I agree. But for a billion dollar company (which I'm not) the cars aint perfect at all.

Cheers

PS: I did it with CATIA V5, which BMW and other majors are using too - for engineering, not for design (first drawings, then taking into Alias Wavefront)

[CassioC]

I not at all a fan of Bangle's flame-surfacing and his use of (often superfluous) lines in the car. I think that BMW really took a step backwards in terms of design with this new direction, and that they are putting off quite a few buyers. I own the current (pre-bangle) 3 series coupe and think that it is by far the best looking BMW ever. Having seen the 5, the 6, 7, and the Z4, I am afraid of what the next generation 3 series will look like.

Some of Bangle's lines are inspired, and he has done great work, although on balance I think that he is far too over-rated as a car designer. The 6 is the best implementation of the flame surfacing theme, and it looks awkward from some angles, with headlights that seem to droop down, and a front end that has an uncharacteristic bit of overhang for a BMW. The rear of the car, with that protruding trunk is shameful--a design device that Bangle and company lifted (and tweaked) from Volvo (not a style leader).

Unfortunately it looks like Bangle is going to be at BMW for a while, and his work is influencing other designers. The new Lexus concept looks like a Bangle design, complete with random sheetmetal creases, although thankfully it does not have as many superfluous lines and cuts in the bodywork. We can only hope that flame surfacing will mature and produce a really great design. It is a shame because BMWs were always so classy--the previous 5, the current 3, the old 7, the Z8. The cars looked light and muscular. The new ones have much squatter stances, and look chunky.

Just my opinion...

[<<CAR EXPERT>>]

I not at all a fan of Bangle's flame-surfacing and his use of (often superfluous) lines in the car. I think that BMW really took a step backwards in terms of design with this new direction, and that they are putting off quite a few buyers. I own the current (pre-bangle) 3 series coupe and think that it is by far the best looking BMW ever. Having seen the 5, the 6, 7, and the Z4, I am afraid of what the next generation 3 series will look like.

Some of Bangle's lines are inspired, and he has done great work, although on balance I think that he is far too over-rated as a car designer. The 6 is the best implementation of the flame surfacing theme, and it looks awkward from some angles, with headlights that seem to droop down, and a front end that has an uncharacteristic bit of overhang for a BMW. The rear of the car, with that protruding trunk is shameful--a design device that Bangle and company lifted (and tweaked) from Volvo (not a style leader).

Unfortunately it looks like Bangle is going to be at BMW for a while, and his work is influencing other designers. The new Lexus concept looks like a Bangle design, complete with random sheetmetal creases, although thankfully it does not have as many superfluous lines and cuts in the bodywork. We can only hope that flame surfacing will mature and produce a really great design. It is a shame because BMWs were always so classy--the previous 5, the current 3, the old 7, the Z8. The cars looked light and muscular. The new ones have much squatter stances, and look chunky.

Just my opinion...

thats what I think, same opinion.

[lutz]

Absolutely. I agree. You've got a perfect top-journalists view. Brilliant!

especially this:

ClassioC wrote: "The new Lexus concept looks like a Bangle design, complete with random sheetmetal creases, although thankfully it does not have as many superfluous lines and cuts in the bodywork."

That's the herd instinct Mercedes will following too, I fear. To ensure that everything goes well with sales (afraid to mistakes).

[CassioC]

Lutz: I saw a concept for the new CL class, and it looks anything but a Bangle design. I've been looking for it ever since (didn't save it!). It's more Audi-like, with flared fenders and crisp lines, although unmistakeably a Mercedes.

The rest of the Mercedes line-up is more hit and miss. SL: home run. E-class: excellent. S: a little boring. SLK (new one): not bad. SLR: interesting, but with some coarse design flaws (not the least of which are those 'fan blade' wheels). ...But I digress.

Personally, if I were a product manager for the Audi A4/Mercedes C-class/Infiniti G series, I would make the next generation of those cars as awe-inspiring as possible (think Audi LeMans). If the next BMW 3 series is half as controversial as the current crop of Bangle cars, then BMW might have a commercial problem of epic proportions on their hands. We'll have to wait and see how this unfolds.

By the way Lutz, your 6 concept is awesome. Forgot to mention that in my first post. I like the way the hood is cut and the quad side exhausts.

[lutz]

ClassioC: I just had nearly 5 weeks for the whole BMW (without interior). I did design it directly from the head into the computer. Of course, it is not the usual way to design a car. But if you don't have much time for "Creative Hours", then you'll trying to be as fast as possible.

Honestly: On the m6 there is still a lot to enhance, from surface quality to some general proportions. To design a car with an engineering program (As I did) it is not the easiest way to get a beautiful and sleek one.

The good thing is, it looks realistic on the CGImages and a manufacturer could producing it, making models, driveable showcars or whatever.

I would like to drive such a concept anytime... )

[<<CAR EXPERT>>]

The rest of the Mercedes line-up is more hit and miss. SL: home run. E-class: excellent. S: a little boring. SLK (new one): not bad. SLR: interesting, but with some coarse design flaws (not the least of which are those 'fan blade' wheels). ...But I digress.

why do u think the s class is boring?¿?¿?¿?¿?¿