2002 Chevy Camaro SS and Skyline R34 GT-R

[Slicks]

Oh, I'm so ignorant.
The Camaro was the best ever car. So much better than anything else available in Europe at the time.
That is why it was the runaway sales success of the decade.

Strangely enough, the British press consider the 350Z a fine car.
Different countries, different driving styles, different requirements.
American cars cannot cope with the appaling road surfaces in Britain, leading to lots of pitch and wallowing.

Seeing as I wasn't of a driving age, and there aren't many about, I didn't get the opportunity to sample the Camaro.

I do vividly remember its appearance on Top Gear though, driven by Tiff Needell. Again, I was looking forward to it, as I did actually like the thought of the Camaro at the time, but it wasn't a good day for the Camaro.

I never said it was the best, i just said that people abuse it so much and yet havent even driven one... And ofcourse it didnt sell well in europe, with people like topgear, and others thinking pushrods are "lowtech" how could it?

I also never said that the 350Z was a bad car, i was just using an example of another perfomance car with similar stats.

[Slicks]

After some further digging, I have found some info on the "UK" spec Camaro.

From Car magazine's "The Good, The Bad & The Ugly" from 2000.
"Massive ammounts of sports-car presence and sheer grunt for the money - especially the V8. It'll make an impression. But it's simple and crude and as subtle as Liberace. Left hand drive only.

V6 is quicker than the MX-5 brigade, but you drive on the torque. Z28 is a 288bhp 5.7-litre V8, massively fast, and you needn't use the truck-like gearbox much. But there's a live axle at the back, so drive as if it's a (large) classic car in modern clothes.

Sold through a small network of Vauxhall dealers, so servicing ought to be matched to British norms, even if the car itself certainly isn't."

Lhd and big-cube engines will bring an insurance penalty.
Understressed engines mean fuel consumption isn't too tragic.*"

*Still doesn't mean it is good.

3.8 V6 coupe £18,975 ($35,000) 125mph (0-60) 8.5 MPG 22.9
3.8 V6 cabriolet £22,500 ($41,000)
Z28 5.7 V8 £22,900 ($41,600) 158mph (0-60) 5.4 MPG 20.9

2001 Honda S2000 MPG 28.5

As both sources are British publications, I assume they are both imperial gallons.

Some comments on other American imports:
Cadillac Seville STS: "Just one model, and we probably wouldn't choose it at all."

Chrysler Neon: "Sadly the Neon is nowhere near the standards of the best Europeans. The 2.0 litre engine is too noisy and the three speed auto comical.

Our Choice: Buy a nearly new Focus."

Chrysler Viper:"Here's a Chrysler import we don't actually need. We already do torquey beasts (see TVR/Marcos) better than this V10 animal, and it's neither cheap nor well equipped.

What'll it do mister? That'll be one of the mre polite enquiries you'll get from resentful members of the British public. Be prepared to be the centre of attention, whether you like it or not. Also be prepared for the thing to fidget and fuss ovr anything but smooth tarmac, yet another reason why it shouldn't be given road room over here. If you like powerslides on demand though, and you are challenged in the trouser department, this is definately your kind of snake.

A Viper GTS has airbags, air-con but no ABS or electric windows.
The Roadster hasn't got any of the above. If it rains you'll be soaked by the time you've nailed the roof together. Kit-wise, even a Neon has more going for it than one of these."

Corvette C5:"Traditional Corvette virtues - value, performance, looks - married to a more sophisticated package that can compete globally.

Goes like a rocket sled... which will make an F355 go red. But ride is hard with the 'performance handling package' suspension. Opt for 'real-time' adaptive ride option, which also improves handling on real roads."

See - they can be nice if they want!

Dig a little deeper, the Camaro SS gets 18/29mpg, the S2000 of the same year gets 20/28mpg.

[Coventrysucks]

We never got the SS, so why argue the point?

My original post was stating why the Camaro didn't sell in the UK, so why discuss models not sold here.

There might have been a gold-plated version, which was the best handling car in the world, with 1,000bhp, and 100mpg in the US for all I care, but if it wasn't sold in the UK, it doesn't change the fact that the version in the UK got relatively poor economy, and didn't handle well.

And BTW, the Top Gear review was pre-cynical Jeremy Clarkson days, when they used to take a much more objective standpoint, rather than subjective.

[Coventrysucks]

And of course it didnt sell well in europe, with people like topgear, and others thinking pushrods are "lowtech" how could it?

Pushrods are lowtech, which is part of the appeal.
Less mechanical complexity, less moving parts, less to go wrong etc.

[Smokescreen]

I knew this would happen.

Note that the following is coming from a 16 year old.

I want the non Americans to get a little something about The Camaro and all it's muscle car brethren. People over here don't buy cars like the SS or Z/28 to take them on the twisties. They have them as eveyday, low-tech cars that go fast in a straight line. With an S2000, you can't haul four friends around on a weekend or carry a whole lotta stuff either. America is a BIG place. there are very few uninhabited places, all of it is spread out with small towns avery ten mils or so. I'm not sure what it's like where you all are from but here there are a lot of straight low traffic, rarley patroled country roads. Heck, if you wanted to you go out in the country five or six miles, measure off a quarter mile and run it in broad daylight and no one would ever even know about it. Handling means nothing. It all about speed.

Part of is is becasue of the car's personality. When you see an f-body with dual exhaust you know it's a a V-8 powered car. They have aggressive looks. They sound mean. I'm not saying that these are perfect cars, but they are cool cars. It's like Harley riders. There's something about Harleys. Call it noslatgia.

Here are some prices of Gen 4 Camaros and Firebirds from the mid-90's, take from my local auto trader:

'95 Trans Am, 76k miles, 5.7L, AC, AT $6,500
'95 Trans Am, "low milage", 5.7L, 5 speed, $5,995
'93 Camaro Z/28, AT, CD, $4,700

A friend of mine owns a '95 Z/28, rated and 275hp and with exhaust, intake, and chips, it will easily make 350hp. I know that this isn't a car for all landscapes, but i just want you all to see why Americans like these kinds of cars. Just my two-cents.

[Slicks]

We never got the SS, so why argue the point?

My original post was stating why the Camaro didn't sell in the UK, so why discuss models not sold here.

There might have been a gold-plated version, which was the best handling car in the world, with 1,000bhp, and 100mpg in the US for all I care, but if it wasn't sold in the UK, it doesn't change the fact that the version in the UK got relatively poor economy, and didn't handle well.

And BTW, the Top Gear review was pre-cynical Jeremy Clarkson days, when they used to take a much more objective standpoint, rather than subjective.

Didnt know you never got the SS, no matter, the Z28 gets the exact same gasmilage.

[Slicks]

Pushrods are lowtech, which is part of the appeal.
Less mechanical complexity, less moving parts, less to go wrong etc.

Also lighter, physically smaller, and can produce the same ammount of power...whats so bad about a small lightweight engine with loads or torque and power?

[Slicks]

I knew this would happen.

Note that the following is coming from a 16 year old.

I want the non Americans to get a little something about The Camaro and all it's muscle car brethren. People over here don't buy cars like the SS or Z/28 to take them on the twisties. They have them as eveyday, low-tech cars that go fast in a straight line. With an S2000, you can't haul four friends around on a weekend or carry a whole lotta stuff either. America is a BIG place. there are very few uninhabited places, all of it is spread out with small towns avery ten mils or so. I'm not sure what it's like where you all are from but here there are a lot of straight low traffic, rarley patroled country roads. Heck, if you wanted to you go out in the country five or six miles, measure off a quarter mile and run it in broad daylight and no one would ever even know about it. Handling means nothing. It all about speed.

Part of is is becasue of the car's personality. When you see an f-body with dual exhaust you know it's a a V-8 powered car. They have aggressive looks. They sound mean. I'm not saying that these are perfect cars, but they are cool cars. It's like Harley riders. There's something about Harleys. Call it noslatgia.

Here are some prices of Gen 4 Camaros and Firebirds from the mid-90's, take from my local auto trader:

'95 Trans Am, 76k miles, 5.7L, AC, AT $6,500
'95 Trans Am, "low milage", 5.7L, 5 speed, $5,995
'93 Camaro Z/28, AT, CD, $4,700

A friend of mine owns a '95 Z/28, rated and 275hp and with exhaust, intake, and chips, it will easily make 350hp. I know that this isn't a car for all landscapes, but i just want you all to see why Americans like these kinds of cars. Just my two-cents.

Sounds about right to me, except the 4th gen f-bodies came out in 98, so those are the 3rd gen.

Mainly yes, there are many strait and broud roads here, where you able to go very fast. There are a fair share of the twisties though, in which the Camaro performs just fine.

[Matra et Alpine]

Also lighter, physically smaller, and can produce the same ammount of power...whats so bad about a small lightweight engine with loads or torque and power?

When belts technology wasn't great this is true.
But nowadays, it's not an issue.
It's hard to stop a pudhrod flexing and IS a limiting factor on recs and aggresive timing.
Course big torque and low revving solutions make this an apples an doranges comparison.

So far I've not seen any varable valve timing solution based on pushrods - anyone ???

So it may become a quaint memory along with mechanical fuel pumps

[Coventrysucks]

You do relize that a 02SS actually gets better gas milage than an S2000 right?

Autocar's own test figures from November 1999:
Z28 20/27mpg
S2000 33.1/29mpg

Top Gear Magazine's own test figures May 2001:
Z28 20.9mpg
S2000 28.5mpg

Evo magazine's figures September 1999:
Z28 20.3mpg
S2000 28.5mpg

All figures are imperial gallons.

Please could you explain how the Z28 gets better economy than a Honda S2000.

[Smokescreen]

Sounds about right to me, except the 4th gen f-bodies came out in 98, so those are the 3rd gen.

Mainly yes, there are many strait and broud roads here, where you able to go very fast. There are a fair share of the twisties though, in which the Camaro performs just fine.

No, the 4th gen came out in the early 90's, it was mostly cosmeticaly redesigned in '98(Camaro got the dual headlight housings and rounder body panels). 3rd gen were the 80's IROC body style cars.

[Slicks]

Autocar's own test figures from November 1999:
Z28 20/27mpg
S2000 33.1/29mpg

Top Gear Magazine's own test figures May 2001:
Z28 20.9mpg
S2000 28.5mpg

Evo magazine's figures September 1999:
Z28 20.3mpg
S2000 28.5mpg

All figures are imperial gallons.

Please could you explain how the Z28 gets better economy than a Honda S2000.

Tell me was the Z28 tested an auto? I couldnt find any tests done by EVO, top gear, and autocar on any camaro(and not like im going to belive anything topgear says ). Unfortunetly any articles concerning test driving the Camaro in Car and Driver, Road and Track, and MotorTrend are all to old to keep alive on thier websites. But i can find the S2000.

For 2003 CarandDriver-observed fuel economy: 23 mpg
For 2004 CarandDriver "extreme sports" for a 800mile trip C/D got 22mpg average, and 25mpg highway.

It seems either the S2000 euro spec is different from ours, or other things can be a work here.

Do you want me to explain how the Z28 gets better gas milage than the S2000? You dont have to rev the crap out of the engine to get anywhere. In the S2000 you have to rev to 3000-5000RPMs to just keep up with traffic. The Z28 will easily stay with traffic at 2000RPMs. Also with all the low end torque you can achieve good gasmilage (27+) in 6th gear for hwy driving, where as again you dont have that kind of torque with the S2000, hence one reason for bad hwy EPA (25mpg)

One more thing, here we have a gas guzzler tax you pay when purchasing a car, im not sure exacly what the EPA must be to pass it but the Z28 and SS both (manual form) pass it, where as the S2000 doesn not.

[Coventrysucks]

Tell me was the Z28 tested an auto? I couldnt find any tests done by EVO, top gear, and autocar on any camaro(and not like im going to belive anything topgear says ). Unfortunetly any articles concerning test driving the Camaro in Car and Driver, Road and Track, and MotorTrend are all to old to keep alive on thier websites. But i can find the S2000.

It didn't specify whether it was an auto or not. Evo probably didn't test the auto if they could get their hands on a manual.

Why not belive Top Gear magazine from the late '90s. It isn't the same as today's programme.
Top Gear started out as a serious motoring review programme and magazine, and built up a reputation as such. Now with 5th Gear doing the kind of thing Top Gear did, TG tv has taken a different approach.
And just because you don't like what they say, doesn't make it wrong.

3 sets of independant figures show that the S2000 does get better economy than the Camaro, why isn't that enough for you?

[Matra et Alpine]

.....Do you want me to explain how the Z28 gets better gas milage than the S2000? You dont have to rev the crap out of the engine to get anywhere. In the S2000 you have to rev to 3000-5000RPMs to just keep up with traffic.

Revs themselves are NOT an indicatino of gas mileage !!
Best engine efficiency can ceom at any poitn in an engines rev range, eacj engine is designed to deliver it at different points in it's power curve. An engine COULD use more gas at 2000 revs than it does at 5000 under load.

However, it IS the norm that low revs and high revs take more gas, just how loa and how high is engine and car dependant ( wweight, transmission, final ratios etc )

The Z28 will easily stay with traffic at 2000RPMs. Also with all the low end torque you can achieve good gasmilage (27+) in 6th gear for hwy driving, where as again you dont have that kind of torque with the S2000, hence one reason for bad hwy EPA (25mpg)

TOrqiue is unimportanta for hiwghway mileage, but what IS is a very long top gear and I've ususally found most American and US-bound cars are supplied with a top gear that can ONLY be used on motorways. It's there to 'cheat' the mileage [/QUOTE]

One more thing, here we have a gas guzzler tax you pay when purchasing a car, im not sure exacly what the EPA must be to pass it but the Z28 and SS both (manual form) pass it, where as the S2000 doesn not.

Not knowing anything but one fact about the 'guzzler' tax I can't comment.
BUT any system which allows SUVs to be bought by families for family use and NOT be included in the tax is a clear indication that it is a biased solution in at least ONE aspect and possibly suspect in all

[Slicks]

It didn't specify whether it was an auto or not. Evo probably didn't test the auto if they could get their hands on a manual.

Why not belive Top Gear magazine from the late '90s. It isn't the same as today's programme.
Top Gear started out as a serious motoring review programme and magazine, and built up a reputation as such. Now with 5th Gear doing the kind of thing Top Gear did, TG tv has taken a different approach.
And just because you don't like what they say, doesn't make it wrong.

3 sets of independant figures show that the S2000 does get better economy than the Camaro, why isn't that enough for you?

Just from the milage they have claimed to have gotten it seems they tested an auto Z28.
Its not the fact that i dont like what they say its the fact that they simply lie. Ive gone over this before, the "heavy shifter" in the C6 claimed by TopGear was said to be "fingertip light" by the Telegraph. Also the "plastic" center counsol is actually alluminum. You tell me, lies? There are more but im not going to go on.

Your figures still differ from mine, even Hondas offical site says different. Like i said the eurospec might be different from the us spec.