Domestic Vs Imports

[Fleet 500]

I guess if I would turn into the parking lot with a tail fin Mercedes 220 or a BMW 502 I would get similar stares as you are getting.

Furthermore the styling of 1968 Mercedes S-class in infinetely more refined than any of the Caddy's you are so fond of. Of course this is a matter of taste. The only point I make is that for us Europeans, the sixties american styling is not called "normal".

btw, the englishman lives on the Isle of Wight and not WRight, maybe you wanted him to be right but that is something else

Even '60s Mercedes and BMWs get more stares than modern ones (but there aren't many '60s European cars here except at car shows).

Depends on what you mean by "refined." A '68 Mercedes certainly does not have extravagant styling... it's a box! The '68 Cadillacs had nice, sculptured styling and a full-length, stretch-out chassis.
Would you agree that '60s American styling is more normal than '90s or 2000's American styling? If I were to go back to 1965 and show men and women photos of today's American cars, they would probably laugh their heads off! They would probably want to know why anyone would want to drive a modern cramped, blob-like, cookie-cutter car when they could drive what they were (a sleek-styled, comfortable, quiet, smooth-riding, powerful and roomy mid-'60s car).

Speaking of a '68 Mercedes... (Letters, Motor Trend, Jan., 1974)
"How could you guys predict 150,000 miles for the Mercedes 220 Sedan with no major repairs? I've had two Mercedes- the first one a 1964 220-SE which needed a complete overhaul of the injection pumps at 42,000 miles because it was running lean and burned the valves. The valve job and injection pump cost about $550 and then there is the German-made mufflers which last about 1 and 1/2 years. Plush a solenoid for the transmission. I spent $2,000 on the car in the first 4 years.

The second Mercedes was a 1968 250-SE. It burned a quart of oil every 500 miles. At 40,000 miles, it had a rear-end howl and used a quart of oil every 200 miles. The injection pump went to the rich side and I was getting 12.5 mpg. Here's what it cost me: $400, new differential, $1,300, overhaul engine, $300, overhaul injection pump. I traded the M-B in on a Dodge Polara and it will do the 150,000 bit you're talking about."
- Arthur Soltwedel, Northridge, Calif.

Yes, I copied the location of the address to the other letter wrong... it was printed in the mag as "Wight."

[Matra et Alpine]

Please, Fleet, you are doing it AGAIN.

"2 swallows do not a summer make" - old saying

Do you knwo HOW MANY Mercs in Europe did well over 1/4 million MILES ? No, well there were plenty - I feel I've been in most of them as taxis

Is it ANY surprise that you fouind a letter from an Englishman praising the virtues ? Do you REALLY think there is NOBODY in the US praising French Citroen 2CVs ?

Styling is "styling" and the only thing you can say about GOOD style is it endures. Not that the original OBJECT endures or that there are fans of the original but that the styling cues appear in modern guise adn are equally as accepted. Hell, fins didn't even survive 10 years of design history before consigned to the bucket. Cycle wings have endured 100 WHen a designer raids the retro bucket, you get a chance to see the good parts of an older design and he gets the chacne to leave the dead-end bits behind. You can use the retro-fad to guide your viewpoint for "objective" analysis.

BUT styling is SUBJECTIVE. Some peple like Monet and hate Picasso, some the other. It doesn't make one better than the other. BUT Monet's early work is CRAP and some of Picassos is poorly executed. So a bad Monet or Picasso is seldom appreciated more than a good Jack Vetriano. You are in a minority in liking the cars you do. No problem, I'm in the same place with the Matra Bagheera - but I'm honest enough to hold up it's inadequacies and NOT try to defend it in looks OR engineering with better cars.

If you were to go back to the 60s and show someone a picture of a computer they'd laugh their heads off. Or a vibrator THat's called PROGRESS It only reflects the time-sensitivity of our expectations !!!! It doesn't make ANY comment on "style" the objects, beyond it's "different".

[nota]

Depends on what you mean by "refined." A '68 Mercedes certainly does not have extravagant styling... it's a box! The '68 Cadillacs had nice, sculptured styling and a full-length, stretch-out chassis.

You're right, W108/9-model Mercedes styling is certainly not extravagant, nor really meant to be. Rather it was traditional & conservative yet beautifully proportioned machine with fine detailing. (Btw the spare is easily accessible no compulsary hernia, unlike Caddy) Also uber functional due to very low belt-line & all corners visible. In other words, a bullseye for its market niche

I suppose the same could be said of Cadillac, although those jutting headlight nacelles are a tad over the top for my taste - certainly a 'W' front-styling theme taken to extreme! Conversely the '68 Eldorado was/is a stunningly attractive motor car

The second Mercedes was a 1968 250-SE. It burned a quart of oil every 500 miles. At 40,000 miles, it had a rear-end howl and used a quart of oil every 200 miles. The injection pump went to the rich side and I was getting 12.5 mpg. Here's what it cost me: $400, new differential, $1,300, overhaul engine, $300, overhaul injection pump. I traded the M-B in on a Dodge Polara and it will do the 150,000 bit you're talking about."
- Arthur Soltwedel, Northridge, Calif.

I only sold my 1970 Benz 280SE (also a W108) this October, bought it in '00. It was a rock-solid & very likeable car, proved itself 100% reliable for me. Oil consumption was fantastic, only one pint needed every 5000kms. The clutch was last replaced in 1984! With known history since new she was in daily use for 35 years but had only required one engine rebuild. But original gearbox, steering box, diff & was still going great when I sold it

In my experience a lousy mechanic can ruin any car (or reputation)

And I agree that overall the '60s era was a high watermark for US car styling

[Fleet 500]

If you were to go back to the 60s and show someone a picture of a computer they'd laugh their heads off. Or a vibrator THat's called PROGRESS It only reflects the time-sensitivity of our expectations !!!! It doesn't make ANY comment on "style" the objects, beyond it's "different".

And you say I post information which isn't relevant!

[Fleet 500]

Do you knwo HOW MANY Mercs in Europe did well over 1/4 million MILES ? No, well there were plenty - I feel I've been in most of them as taxis

Is it ANY surprise that you fouind a letter from an Englishman praising the virtues ? Do you REALLY think there is NOBODY in the US praising French Citroen 2CVs ?

Hell, fins didn't even survive 10 years of design history before consigned to the bucket.

BUT styling is SUBJECTIVE.

Strange how all the Mercedes which give a lot a trouble end up in the U.S.

Anyone in the U.S. praising Citroens has BAD taste, IMO.

Fins were on Cadillacs from 1948 to 1964... they lasted even longer, they were not true upswept fins but the end of the rear fender did end in a "point" or "fin" on Caddys up to and beyond even 1976.

Yes, styling is subjective, but (again IMO) anyone who thinks a 1995 or 2005 mid-sized or full-sized Ford or Buick looks better than a 1965 example has bad taste.

[Fleet 500]

1.) You're right, W108/9-model Mercedes styling is certainly not extravagant, nor really meant to be. Rather it was traditional & conservative yet beautifully proportioned machine with fine detailing. (Btw the spare is easily accessible no compulsary hernia, unlike Caddy) Also uber functional due to very low belt-line & all corners visible. In other words, a bullseye for its market niche

2.) I suppose the same could be said of Cadillac, although those jutting headlight nacelles are a tad over the top for my taste - certainly a 'W' front-styling theme taken to extreme! Conversely the '68 Eldorado was/is a stunningly attractive motor car


3.) I only sold my 1970 Benz 280SE (also a W108) this October, bought it in '00. It was a rock-solid & very likeable car, proved itself 100% reliable for me. Oil consumption was fantastic, only one pint needed every 5000kms. The clutch was last replaced in 1984! With known history since new she was in daily use for 35 years but had only required one engine rebuild. But original gearbox, steering box, diff & was still going great when I sold it

In my experience a lousy mechanic can ruin any car (or reputation)

4.) And I agree that overall the '60s era was a high watermark for US car styling

1.) Well, if a '68 Mercedes had a trunk as big as a '68 Cadillac, the spare would be just as hard to get out. But, it's of little matter... I've yet not had a reason to take the spare out of my '69 Cadillac.
How can a box-like car be "beautifully proportioned?"
All four corners are also visible in my '69 and '70 Cadillacs (the rear end ending in a type of "fin" helps).

2.) Compare the "W" front styling them to the "blah" styling theme of modern Cadillacs. There's nothing to it! Just a blob of plastic (maybe a little metal included, if you're lucky). Note the fine texture of the grille on the '68... completely missing on late-model Cadillacs. Now they just put slots or some tiny thing which is supposed to be a grille. I won't even get into the fully chromed, great looking front and rear bumpers as opposed to the ridiculous plastic "bumpers" of modern Cadillacs.

3.) As I said to Matra, it's interesting how the Mercedes which have problems end up in the U.S. And don't blame the mechanic for a car's problems. It's not his fault if an injector goes bad or the rear end starts howling.
Hmmmm... 35 years with only one engine rebuild. My '69 and '70 Cadillacs have gone 35 years with NO engine or transmission rebuilds!

One more letter (Motor Trend, Jan., 1974 [same issue as the other letter]):
"I find it difficult to understand your unabased worship of Mercedes-Benz. I have driven several of their models more than a little. To me they are:
1. Hard riding.
2. Inferior performance.
3. Boxy appearance.
4. Vastly overpriced.

If you put a Detroit label on the front and eliminated the famous star, how many would be sold at the quoted prices?"
- H.M. Bulen, Pigeon, Michigan

4.) Yes, I agree. Many great styling designs... '68-'70 Dodge Charger, Mustang, Camaro, Buick Riviera, '69 Potiac Grand Prix, Thunderbird, Corvette, etc.

[Matra et Alpine]

And you say I post information which isn't relevant!

possibly ,but at least mine with smileys ARE funny

[Matra et Alpine]

[quote=Fleet 500]Strange how all the Mercedes which give a lot a trouble end up in the U.S. [/qute]
No, what's sad is that you continue to take a handful of examples and decide that's the way the world is. Ony countering your one-sided view again.

Anyone in the U.S. praising Citroens has BAD taste, IMO.

Well that sums up the intelligent car comments from those you know then

Fins were on Cadillacs from 1948 to 1964... they lasted even longer, they were not true upswept fins but the end of the rear fender did end in a "point" or "fin" on Caddys up to and beyond even 1976.

I was meanign MAINSTREAM when everyoen was doign it. NOT takign it from the starting "nub" on a concept car to the final "bling" on the dying breed. But, hey, how long it lasted is failry irrelevant as you don't see ANY now do you. Q-E-D.

Yes, styling is subjective, but (again IMO) anyone who thinks a 1995 or 2005 mid-sized or full-sized Ford or Buick looks better than a 1965 example has bad taste.

Don't doubt it.
A designed by focus group modern Ford is as bad as a designed by focus group 1960s.
An Alfa or Peugeot 406 versus a Ford Taurus ? versus a behemoth ??
Nobody ever said all Eureopan cars are great - we've got the likes of Fiat and Lada

[Matra et Alpine]

3.) As I said to Matra, it's interesting how the Mercedes which have problems end up in the U.S. And don't blame the mechanic for a car's problems. It's not his fault if an injector goes bad or the rear end starts howling.

oh dear, we went over this one before too
If a rear end is howling then the diff oil level wasn't kept up or the wrong visosity and additives oil was used. You guys can buy REALLY CHEAP OILs for your cars. There are consequences
You'r talking through a hole in your head which has swapped ends with the "Problesm in the US" sh!t and you know it !!!!!
Here we go, GET THE FACTS. Post how many miles per annum per car average and the failure rates and comparison figures for your favourites ACROSS THE TOTAL POPULATION or you'r jsut posting the kind of information that GWB calls "reliable intellignce" -- oops USED to call

Hmmmm... 35 years with only one engine rebuild. My '69 and '70 Cadillacs have gone 35 years with NO engine or transmission rebuilds!

First, it doesn't take stresses of driving style. Single citations are pointless.
THo IIRC it's a 50s big V8 that has the world record without a rebuild at 1/2mill. But that's like saying a Le Mans car could run for a week - yes it could but NOT BEING DRIVEN as it was intended So long mileage may jsut be because the drier never revved it - we had a neighbour with an Imp who NEVER went above 35 mph. THAT car will still be running today if he still owned it. But it's not really a valid comparison of ANYTHING is it.
So by the time you get out beyond about 10 years you're really in to the zone the designer never intended for whatever reasons. The BIG plus of big capacity V8s is that the lazy nature of the setup makes it less stressful and longer living.

One more letter (Motor Trend, Jan., 1974 [same issue as the other letter]):
"I find it difficult to understand your unabased worship of Mercedes-Benz. I have driven several of their models more than a little. To me they are:
1. Hard riding.
2. Inferior performance.
3. Boxy appearance.
4. Vastly overpriced.

If you put a Detroit label on the front and eliminated the famous star, how many would be sold at the quoted prices?"
- H.M. Bulen, Pigeon, Michigan

I LOVE the IRONY (look it up) of you posting a letter about bias
So are you saying that EVERY person who bought a Merc in the US was driving a car with 1-4 ? Wow, I wonder why they became so big to be able to BUY CHrysler.... SOmetimes there is a CLEAR message that highlights biased nonsense
4.) Yes, I agree. Many great styling designs... '68-'70 Dodge Charger, Mustang, Camaro, Buick Riviera, '69 Potiac Grand Prix, Thunderbird, Corvette, etc.[/quote]

[Fleet 500]

possibly ,but at least mine with smileys ARE funny

Okay, here you go...

[Matra et Alpine]

Okay, here you go...

Another self-ownage proving the point you don't grasp humour.

Bet Archie Bunker was a favourite for you when you were growing up

[Fleet 500]

1.) oh dear, we went over this one before too
If a rear end is howling then the diff oil level wasn't kept up or the wrong visosity and additives oil was used. You guys can buy REALLY CHEAP OILs for your cars. There are consequences

2.) Wow, I wonder why they became so big to be able to BUY CHrysler....

1.) That is the weakest reply you've come up wtih this year! Did it ever occur to you that maybe the factory neglected to put the proper amount of fluid in the first place?
This relates to a Toyota, not a Mercedes, but it proves the point that the factory can sometimes send out cars low on fluids or whatever...
(Motor Trend, June, 1983):
"I purchased a Toyota GT-S last September with the feeling of having a reliable, well-built car. After only four months, the paint was cracking on the hood and the headlights collect moisture and must be wiped out periodically. After only 3,000 miles, the cruise control quit working; and after 6,000 miles, the left rear axle bearing was shot. It seems that *Toyota didn't put enough lubrication in the rear end*. I think for my next car I'll get something just as reliable at a much cheaper price: a 1959 Edsel Corsair."
- Steve Xikouloutakis, Baltimore, Maryland
(Yes, that's how his last name was printed.)

2.) They certainly would not have been able to buy Chrysler in the '60s.

[Fleet 500]

Another self-ownage proving the point you don't grasp humour.

Speaking of humour, when are we going to see yours?

[Matra et Alpine]

1.) That is the weakest reply you've come up wtih this year! Did it ever occur to you that maybe the factory neglected to put the proper amount of fluid in the first place?

If you actually KNEW anything about vehicle delivery chaing then it is up to the DEALER to do a "Pre Delivery Inspection" to confirm all the fluids are correct. So it's the DEALER's fault.

This relates to a Toyota, not a Mercedes, but it proves the point that the factory can sometimes send out cars low on fluids or whatever...

That's why dealers do PDIs - well at least they do in decent garages for decent manufacturers. SOunds liek some places dont' have one or the other then

(Motor Trend, June, 1983):
"I purchased a Toyota GT-S last September

Right, let's make this simple.

Stop feckjing posting single letters without bothering yoru lazy arse to qunatify it. AND without bothering to read what came before. So jsut as with M-B, IF all the TOtyota's were like that then how come they are now the number oen world manufacturer and have taken over failing US plants and turned them around ? Dont' you even THINK how out of sync with world reality your little snippets of ego-grabbing are ???

2.) They certainly would not have been able to buy Chrysler in the '60s.

What's that got to do with it ?
The cars produced by the company dont' make enough sales/profit to grow the company. So those 60s cars you love are partly to blame
Waken up and smell the coffee.
Especially if Toyota decide to buy one of the other three brand names !!!!

[Matra et Alpine]

Speaking of humour, when are we going to see yours?

Well we know you can't recognise it , that's why we put smileys to help you

PS: To help you ... THAT form of humour is called sarcasm !!!!