big engine and nothing else

[Matra et Alpine]

what does it matter what times and whether or not these cars are used on the street?

I guess I was trying to make sure that it's clear when someone says 'fastest' that it's only that fast under drag conditions and that on a steet with bumps and corners it may not be the match of a car 0.1s slower on the 1/4 mile.

For an average guy or girl who wants to go racing, drag racing is the cheapest form of racing, thats why i said its so popular. For 60 odd dollars you can take your car out as many times as you like in a night down the strip....i dont know any other form of racing that allows you to race as fast as youre cars capable of(albiet if its to fast they make you put roll cages and other safety equipment in it)so cheaply.(certainly not circuit racing).

Sorry, I've said it in other threads, I forget how well serviced we are in the UK.
Check out www.knockhill.co.uk and www.crailthrash.co.uk
Both circuits are 30 mins from me and run 2 or 3 events PER WEEK between them. And then you can hire them for a day for 1200 pounds ( $1800 ) so 30 of you turn up and it's only $60 each - for a WHOLE day, the track to yourselves

I dont know why you keep referring to cars for ROAD use, as its a car forum,

Sorry, Shaker, it's just that anyone can tune an engine to go ballistc and then we end up in formum comparing and saying X is fastest when what is meant is X is fastest in a straight line when stripped out and running special tyres and bleached road cusrce blah blah blah

ARE WRC cars classed as cars for road use?NO, and you constantly keep referring to them. They are just as much of a "race" car as a drag racer is.

Yes, they are for road use as the twenty odd wrc drivers who got booked at the Welsh rally GB will be explaining in court !! Anyway, valid point and point taken, Shaker

[plexus]

You guys fall into two camps. One group loves small jap turbo cars and are probably influenced by Gran Turismo and other computer games not to mention science fiction like Fast and Furious. The others love big V8s and are most likely US citizens. Your predjudice for either of these to the extent that you dump on the others makes for interesting? arguments but in the end is illogical. That both types of cars exist, sell and continue to be developed proves the popularity and relevance of both types. Instead of making comments like "when are the yanks going to wake up and realise you dont need a big engine to produce X output", be grateful that there is the choice. There are fantastic examples of both types. While one type may at this minute be the fastest, most powerful etc etc, there is always someone bigger out there somewhere.

I must say this has hit the nail on the head. For me i like big v8s but i also like the smaller ero motors. It really dosnt matter wich is better because they are equaly as good. i can make the same amount of those horsies with a big block or a small block motor, i really care more about my power ratio an torque an what the hell im going to do (street or track) an as for that 230+ f1 i like it but hell ill never own it so the hell with it. im more conserned with cars ill meet on the street not a car i have to see in a car show. Besides i like the 60s mk3 an gt40, And if your talking about a flat out hp then the americans are leading the pack right now, any weekend roadwarrior can bolt on a turbo to boost thier hp hell i did.

[SHAKER]

well sure if theres 30 of you dividing it up it works out cheaper(we too have a company called U DRIVE where you can race formula fords around a track.I went halves with my mate and it cost us 175 dollars for 1/2 a day each, which was pretty good value, but that was in 1997 though).I just had a vision of 30 different people racing my car down the strip 30 times...lol.....aw gawd thats an ultimate way to kill a car.

[Matra et Alpine]

U DRIVE where you can race formula fords around a track.I went halves with my mate and it cost us 175 dollars for 1/2 a day each, which was pretty good value, but that was in 1997 though).

All of the tracks now run some form of this 'experience' for about the smae price today
I did one of these back in the early 90s - the start of me being a track-junky.
Anyway, the owners usually restrict the revs on the engine to reduce their costs. Back then it was an FF1600 and no electronic engine management, so we were told if we revved about 4500 we'd be black-flagged. Well on my third lap I was black-flagged in and told to get out of the car as I was clearly over-revving it. Well the tell-tale was sitting RIGHT ON 4500. I'd been using the 'box to keep the engine at 4500 and had lapped faster than they'd seen before Still didn't let me back out though as I was told "you're not meant to go that fast" - HUH ??!!!???

[Doza]

does your Prelude actually go to 60 in 1.5 seconds, or is this a joke that I don't get?

What do you think?
4Cyl
2600lbs
140hp
132ftlbs

[crisis]

New member, excuse me for getting defensive right away-
You guys are having this long winded discussion about great exhaust notes, power, torque, and all the other benefits of a V8 when really the extra cylinders just make up for the technology that they lakc which produces the same results in 6's and even 4's.

All of the really fast 6's and 4's are in small to medium cars. Thats the compromise. You can add turbos, vvt , dohc and a plethora of enhancements to make these motors powerful but they are rarely as powerful as the V8s. They whole package may be as fast or faster than some V8 powered cars but this comes back to the fact that they are generally lighter. Fine if you want a small/ish car. If you had a vvt V8 with a turbo and dohc and everything else that is on the fastest 6s and 4s it would be a step up again. The prehistoric Gen3 produces all its power without any of this. I would like to see a Honda S2000 with 180 hard ks on the clock. Similarly the much hallowed (and a little maligned in this thread) BMW M3 is a high priced sports car. You need to compare with the same type. A basic 2lt BMW is nothing special. Nor are the standard 4cyl Imprezas and Skylines.

[Matra et Alpine]

The prehistoric Gen3 produces all its power without any of this. I would like to see a Honda S2000 with 180 hard ks on the clock.

This is worth mentioning again.
Lazy low revving, low(ish) compression engines will run forever.
The more tuned an engine is the more it needs maintenance and reduced life.
In the days before electronic engine management, it was important for a driver to remember that an engine could only survive a short period of time at various revs. I don't remember the exact numbers now, but it used to be you would get say 90 seconds at max revs, 10 minutes at 7k. ( I'll ask brother next time we're on the phone ).
The point was that the valve springs and valves could only live for a set time due to stress and wear. So you could 'blip' the red line a few times per stage, but do it all the time and you'd have no engine mid-rally ! Also, you knew to plan a rebuild if you spent a lot of time near peak revs
None of that with an equivalent powered V8 !!
Ferrari engine management records the engine revs and gears and they plan service and replacement based on those figures ( I know because my boss got rid of his after the first service and they basicly told him what he'd been doing almost every day for the previous 3 months !! ) THAT is what you should do with a highly-stressed engine.
Again, I'll bet it's a lot less stressed with bigger CCs and more pistons than a peak-tuned and blown I4 !!

[crisis]

This is worth mentioning again.
Lazy low revving, low(ish) compression engines will run forever.
The more tuned an engine is the more it needs maintenance and reduced life.
In the days before electronic engine management, it was important for a driver to remember that an engine could only survive a short period of time at various revs. I don't remember the exact numbers now, but it used to be you would get say 90 seconds at max revs, 10 minutes at 7k. ( I'll ask brother next time we're on the phone ).
The point was that the valve springs and valves could only live for a set time due to stress and wear. So you could 'blip' the red line a few times per stage, but do it all the time and you'd have no engine mid-rally ! Also, you knew to plan a rebuild if you spent a lot of time near peak revs
None of that with an equivalent powered V8 !!
Ferrari engine management records the engine revs and gears and they plan service and replacement based on those figures ( I know because my boss got rid of his after the first service and they basicly told him what he'd been doing almost every day for the previous 3 months !! ) THAT is what you should do with a highly-stressed engine.
Again, I'll bet it's a lot less stressed with bigger CCs and more pistons than a peak-tuned and blown I4 !!

Good comment. I have to say that cause Im still not allowed to give you any points.

[whitesti mp626]

the sti is the best car ever invented price wise + performance

[crisis]

the sti is the best car ever invented price wise + performance

You may not have seen some threads elsewhere on this site so I give you a chance. There are a couple of grumpy, intolerant, jaded pricks like myself who have grown weary with comments of this nature. Similar comments such as XXXX sux or XXXX rules etc are equally unpalatable. You statement is not only subjective, unsupported and improvable but most probably innacurate. I have embarked on a crusade of changing this site for the better. To rid it of these types of comments and make it a home for reasonable discussion. Controversy is fine, humor is great, but intelligence should be cupulsory. I rarely visited other motoring sites but when I have I have left with all haste. I am in no postion of official power here and my opinion is worth no more than anyone elses, but the grand web master has enabled us to rate each other. In this way we can all monitor each others comments and get a feel for how valuable our posts are. I am not the only one who feels this way.

[Falcon500]

My feeling exactly crisis...i was tempted to delete that line but i decided againt it...itll encourage intelligent conversation.
As for the subaru WRX i have driven one i loved the car and would happil own one for the right price.
But imo its not likely to be the best as you saw in the specs the corvette out performed it in all straightline speed and even fuel ecconmy! also the AWD system makes it even heavier then my falcon 500 (yes size can be decieving)
My Verdict:
good car: yes
Best car: not likely so many things to improve on

[plexus]

sorry i got eye strain from reading all those pages,lol, but any way does any body know about this motor the 427 cammer, more spicific is it still in production if so what car/s is it availible in ford, chevy, pontiac,ie. i like the power it produces, just wondering if its still on the market or is it a needle in the hay stack type of deal and yes i know it was in a gt40 as a race engine
but it was also a street motor

what i found:
http://www.me.mtu.edu/~prater/cammer.html

[Nildo]

Matra, yet again you validate a silly point made by Shaker. The WRC cars themselves are not driven on the road, true, but we can drive identical vehicles (eg Evo 6,7,8) on the road courtesy of homologation rules. In fact, even faster versions are available than the rally cars, like the STi RA C spec with 240 kw. This exceeds the theoretical maximum achievable in a rally car. So the cars you are arguing about can be driven on the road, whereas the topfuel cars are still relegated to the strip.

Also Fpv it's not possible for the M3 to have no torque. It merely shows up higher in the rev range. The m3 makes reasonable power, and power is merely a function of torque and revs, so the m3 must have decent torque available somewhere in its curve.

Hmmm, price wise + performance? Well a friend of mine builds Lotus 7 replicas with a Toyota 4AGZE but tuned up and with the 20 valve head, and he sells them for around 50k, which is about 10 k cheaper after you put it on the road. They are faster than STi's too, so they must be the best car invented. Har, Har.

[Matra et Alpine]

Matra, yet again you validate a silly point made by Shaker.

not following you, but it's been a hard week

The WRC cars themselves are not driven on the road, true, but we can drive identical vehicles (eg Evo 6,7,8) on the road courtesy of homologation rules. In fact, even faster versions are available than the rally cars, like the STi RA C spec with 240 kw.

None of the road cars carry the engine management and turbo tricks to keep boost up of the WRCs.
They fail emissions very quickly if tried
But, as you say there are version sold which are MORE powerful.
A few regularly turn up at Knockhill and Crail.
An aside, the Scoobies are heavy and lose power through the 4wd transmission. One of the tuned Subarus' claiming 320BHP at the flywheel was lapping Crail 1 second slower than me in the A610 (250bhp). So power isn't the whole story.

This exceeds the theoretical maximum achievable in a rally car. So the cars you are arguing about can be driven on the road, whereas the topfuel cars are still relegated to the strip.

Erm, haven't I always been taking the position that we need to compare cars that we see on the road ?
This is confusing me again - nothing new there !!

Well a friend of mine builds Lotus 7 replicas with a Toyota 4AGZE but tuned up and with the 20 valve head, and he sells them for around 50k, which is about 10 k cheaper after you put it on the road. They are faster than STi's too, so they must be the best car invented. Har, Har.

Is that the 2litre ?
There's a Locost around with one in, heard it IS fast, but not seen it (yet)
Very low weight always wins
What gearbox and axle setup is he using on the 7 reps ???

[fpv_gtho]

Also Fpv it's not possible for the M3 to have no torque. It merely shows up higher in the rev range. The m3 makes reasonable power, and power is merely a function of torque and revs, so the m3 must have decent torque available somewhere in its curve.

well im sure it has torque somewhere, but with the amount ive driven my dads M3, which isnt much, the low torque of the engine doesnt make it easy to live with