How do you increase Torque?

[SlickHolden]

this is how Hightower joined the debate


"Power does everything, from accelerating to maintaining top speed. Torque is simply a factor involved and getting hot under the collar about peak torque figures is ridiculous at best." (see post 41#)...

not everybody fully agreed

You know i'm a honest man, I would have been here in full aggrence with him, But something about 8 months ago changed my mind.
I started too feel the torque in the car and feel it at 70% throttle, then i found some Dyno sheets and found out that my car is going best in the biggest torque range and the power is way above it.. My cars max power is around 4600rpm, Max Torque is 3600rpm. And the cars best area for acceleration is 2800-3900 rpm. And it's done with power pretty far off max power.
I got a graph also I been getting into it and it's changed my mind on how important torque really is.
The part sounrounded in red is the cars biggest kick in the pants, It's where i know it will do it's best work, And as you can see the power is pretty low from max. So it's got to be the Torque that gives it that rush?.
But that's just my opinion with my car.

[Slicks]

You know i'm a honest man, I would have been here in full aggrence with him, But something about 8 months ago changed my mind.
I started too feel the torque in the car and feel it at 70% throttle, then i found some Dyno sheets and found out that my car is going best in the biggest torque range and the power is way above it.. My cars max power is around 4600rpm, Max Torque is 3600rpm. And the cars best area for acceleration is 2800-3900 rpm. And it's done with power pretty far off max power.
I got a graph also I been getting into it and it's changed my mind on how important torque really is.
The part sounrounded in red is the cars biggest kick in the pants, It's where i know it will do it's best work, And as you can see the power is pretty low from max. So it's got to be the Torque that gives it that rush?.
But that's just my opinion with my car.

Your completely right, is that GM's 4.3L V6?
My mom's blazer has the 4.3 V6, and it pulls much harder around 2000-3500RPMs than it does at 4000+.

[SlickHolden]

Your completely right, is that GM's 4.3L V6?
My mom's blazer has the 4.3 V6, and it pulls much harder around 2000-3500RPMs than it does at 4000+.

It's GM's but it's the 3800 V6 Some call it the Buick 3.8lt.
Even off idle it's a fast moving car and many of these models found there way around tree's and others have large tyre bills. And off idle where they pull ahead of many cars more powerful them it like some V8's 5lt V8's have been shocked at the speed to 60km/h, But power is low in the low revs range as you can see in the graph. So it must be torque pulling.
But i wish it was 4.3lt.

[clutch-monkey]

Even off idle it's a fast moving car and many of these models found there way around tree's

[SlickHolden]

Isn't that what happen to your VN..

So what did you think of my car it handles.

[clutch-monkey]

Isn't that what happen to your VN..

yes

So what did you think of my car it handles.

you had some wieght in the back to aid stability! i.e. three fatasses...

[SlickHolden]

yes

you had some wieght in the back to aid stability! i.e. three fatasses...

No i wasn't in the back.. Even with whiteballllls on his own we had good stability, But i say that's the 225 rubber and 55mm king springs and Monroe gt shocks. + the 35kg box and sub behind the seat.

[nota]

You know i'm a honest man, I would have been here in full aggrence with him, But something about 8 months ago changed my mind.
I started too feel the torque in the car and feel it at 70% throttle, then i found some Dyno sheets and found out that my car is going best in the biggest torque range and the power is way above it.. My cars max power is around 4600rpm, Max Torque is 3600rpm. And the cars best area for acceleration is 2800-3900 rpm. And it's done with power pretty far off max power.
I got a graph also I been getting into it and it's changed my mind on how important torque really is.
The part sounrounded in red is the cars biggest kick in the pants, It's where i know it will do it's best work, And as you can see the power is pretty low from max. So it's got to be the Torque that gives it that rush?.
But that's just my opinion with my car.

Your completely right, is that GM's 4.3L V6?
My mom's blazer has the 4.3 V6, and it pulls much harder around 2000-3500RPMs than it does at 4000+.

I read a bio of Dyno Dave Bennett of Perfectune (cam & cyl head designer/manufacturer of much repute) who in the sixties used to drag a stock Monaro 327, among others. After attaching an accelerometer to the windscreen he noticed it pulled hardest around the torque peak, so instead of stretching it to redline he always upshifted it at 3500 revs, and was basically unbeatable in his class

[henk4]

You know i'm a honest man
I started too feel the torque in the car and feel it at 70% throttle...

I bought my first diesel car in 1985....

[henk4]

I read a bio of Dyno Dave Bennett of Perfectune (cam & cyl head designer/manufacturer of much repute) who in the sixties used to drag a stock Monaro 327, among others. After attaching an accelerometer to the windscreen he noticed it pulled hardest around the torque peak, so instead of stretching it to redline he always upshifted it at 3500 revs, and was basically unbeatable in his class

this sums it up very nicely....you don't need to redline a car when the toque is there..My maximum power sets in at 4000 rpm....and max torque at 2000, so shifting at 2500-2800 gives me the best results. That is what I meant by driveability, that you can move forward in a fast and comfy way, without having to worry about engine parts flying through the car as a result of constant flooring....

[hightower99]

OK.

Power is a measure of how much work (as in F*D) you can due per unit time (as in seconds) a great way of showing what power is, is that 1 Watt is equal to 1 Joule per Second.

Does anyone disagree with that?

From that we can conclude that if you have more power (say 2 Watts) you can either do the same amount of work in less time (1 Joule per 1/2 second), or you can do more work in the same time (2 Joules per second).

Does anyone disagree with that?

Now to accelerate you need to change the velocity of the fixed weight vehicle. To increase velocity you need to add more kinetic energy (that would be Joules again) To be an acceleration there needs to be a time constraint (it can't take forever to get there (to the target speed) unless you are trying to go as fast as light). So now we can conclude that acceleration is equal to the rate you can supply the neccessary energy (in Joules) per unit time (in seconds)

So Power is what accelerates you.

Now here is what is confusing you: Torque is the force at the wheels (remember work is F*D) that gets things moving. The Force created is equal to the torque at the wheels divided by the dynamic radius. The Torque at the wheels is equal to the Power at the wheels divided by the angular speed of the wheels (so you don't need to know the gearbox ratio if you now the angular speed of the wheel which is easily calculated if you know the speed and the radius of the wheel).

So... Torque from the engine is not important on it's own... The power curve is what everyone should be focusing on (not just peak power but the whole curve).

In the end Power has all the torque in it

Torque doesn't have any power in it.

[hightower99]

I read a bio of Dyno Dave Bennett of Perfectune (cam & cyl head designer/manufacturer of much repute) who in the sixties used to drag a stock Monaro 327, among others. After attaching an accelerometer to the windscreen he noticed it pulled hardest around the torque peak, so instead of stretching it to redline he always upshifted it at 3500 revs, and was basically unbeatable in his class

Wow so if this one guy did it, that makes the idea true..... NOT!

Almost everyone who knows what they are doing in drag racing shifts so that when the next gear is engaged they are just going into the power peak again.

[2ndclasscitizen]

OK.

Power is a measure of how much work (as in F*D) you can due per unit time (as in seconds) a great way of showing what power is, is that 1 Watt is equal to 1 Joule per Second.

I'm going to keep on saying this during the entirety of my post so you don't miss it:

Without torque, you have no power. No energy x however long you like still equals zero.

Does anyone disagree with that?

From that we can conclude that if you have more power (say 2 Watts) you can either do the same amount of work in less time (1 Joule per 1/2 second), or you can do more work in the same time (2 Joules per second).

Does anyone disagree with that?

Without torque, you have no power. No energy x however long you like still equals zero.

Now to accelerate you need to change the velocity of the fixed weight vehicle. To increase velocity you need to add more kinetic energy (that would be Joules again) To be an acceleration there needs to be a time constraint (it can't take forever to get there (to the target speed) unless you are trying to go as fast as light). So now we can conclude that acceleration is equal to the rate you can supply the neccessary energy (in Joules) per unit time (in seconds)

So Power is what accelerates you.

All power is, as you yourself put, the rate at which work (in the case of an engine, the torque of the engine) is done. Are you ready? Here it comes again: Without torque, you have no power. No energy x however long you like still equals zero. Once you hit the torque peak, it drops, acceleration decreases, but power increases.

Now here is what is confusing you: Torque is the force at the wheels (remember work is F*D) that gets things moving. The Force created is equal to the torque at the wheels divided by the dynamic radius. The Torque at the wheels is equal to the Power at the wheels divided by the angular speed of the wheels (so you don't need to know the gearbox ratio if you now the angular speed of the wheel which is easily calculated if you know the speed and the radius of the wheel).

Torque is the force exerted downward by the piston during the combustion stroke, the force that turns the crank, turns the gears, turns the driveshafts, then turns the wheels. Torque is the force that is applied to a nut when I apply pressure on a spanner. Simple dictionary definition: twisting or rotating force.

So... Torque from the engine is not important on it's own...

Of course not, if it didn't continue to happen (i.e power) the car/bike/boat wouldn't move

The power curve is what everyone should be focusing on (not just peak power but the whole curve).

A good power curve will come from a good torque curve. While it may be really boring to drive, an engine with a dead flat torque will offer much more accelerative surge for longer. Ever driven a big diesel truck? Dead smooth constant accleration whilst you're in the flast part of the torque band, much faster than if you rev the nuts off it.

In the end Power has all the torque in it

Torque doesn't have any power in it.

What exactly are you trying to prove? That power is better than torque? Why not have both? Is that not the reasoning behind twin turbo systems, twincharging, and a major reasaon for having variable timing systems? To give good torque and therefore good low speed flexibility and acceleration but still allow the engine to work well at high rpm to create lots of power.

[2ndclasscitizen]

Almost everyone who knows what they are doing in drag racing shifts so that when the next gear is engaged they are just going into the power peak again.

Did you even read nota's post? An extremely successful drag racer shifted so the engine stayed in the torque band where it accelerated hardest and won, obviously quite often. It's obviously to anyone with half a brain that he was obviously a drag racer who knew what he was doing.

Wow so if this one guy did it, that makes the idea true..... NOT!

That is unbelievably stupid. My mind boggles at the sheer idiocy and arrogance of that comment. You've been proven wrong and just reject it with a flippant remark. Idiot. You can't reject fact based on the number of people who proved it. You tool.

[charged]

I always thought for max acceleration, the best way to drive was when you select a higher gear the engine is near or close to maximum torque then up change again at max power etc. The powerband of the engine Ive been told is between max torque and max hp.

If an engine is making max torque at 3500 and max hp at 6500, the powerband of the engine is between 3500-6500 rpm or it accelerates the fastest between those given figures.

I know a lot of racers that have spent many laps changing gearsets so that their motors are in the sweet spot between max torque-max hp, from what some of you guys are saying is the best time to upchange is at maximum torque which in between 3000-4000 rpm and that max hp is irrelevent.