2008 Wheels Car of the Year - what car will win?

[john14]

Also, I want to congratulate the Accord Euro for winning this award. The Mazda 6 is a great car as well. I don't know very much about the current Audi A4. Does anybody own this A4 or has anybody driven it?

[henk4]

As explained in my (later) post #125, Ford have been unable to offer a more modern LPG system. Or are you saying Ford should have simply abandoned the LPG market altogether, comprising a significant proportion of Falcon sales including repeat customers?

In any case it is the customers choice on whether or not to buy Ford's old-tech OE E-Gas, which btw despite 'serious consequences' still functions good enough for it to be chosen over aftermarket kits (from what I have seen) in the majority of Oz taxis - Ford having a stranglehold on the cab market. Quite a few Falcon E-Gas fleet sales too

No Ford's E-Gas is not the best system, far from it. However it is the cheapest (iirc $700 vs Holden's V-I on-debut price of $3900) which is an additional factor in the cost-benefit equasion

Overall I think its been a real shame our longest-term and most committed-to-gas car company (and still the only one that OE fits LPG) has been prohibited from offering a more advanced LPG system, despite their good intent at being market-leader in this regard, tracing back many years

What a shitty situation....
and what if the customer puts in an aftermarket LPG installation in a Ford with ESP? No Ford Guarantee anymore?

[nota]

What a shitty situation....

Yeah mate and its been a real bugger for FoA

and what if the customer puts in an aftermarket LPG installation in a Ford with ESP? No Ford Guarantee anymore?

and what if the Dutch customer puts in an aftermarket LPG installation in a Honda Euro with ESP? No Honda Guarantee anymore?
(this despite it being awarded Wheels coty)

Anyway, all LPG equipment sold here is aftermarket I think

[henk4]

and what if the Dutch customer puts in an aftermarket LPG installation in a Honda Euro with ESP? No Honda Guarantee anymore?
(this despite it being awarded Wheels coty)

as far as I know, the importer of any car in Holland, will facilitate the installation of an LPG system, without any warranty clauses.

[nota]

as far as I know, the importer of any car in Holland, will facilitate the installation of an LPG system, without any warranty clauses.

So does this mean that (through passed-on importer>manufacturer warranty transfer costs) its the vehicle manufacturer who effectively ends up warranteeing any subsequent vehicle damage thereof?

I mean its normally the manufacturer, and not the importer, out of who's pocket the factory-warranty repair bills are ultimately covered. Hence if the motor internals explode it seems odd for a manufacturer to cover 'without clause' any non-OE (third-party) modifications.

Or do the importers 'wear' these related warranty costs via separate arrangements with the various aftermarket manufacturers, of these various aftermarket LPG kits, with what would then amount to an aftermarket warranty?

Where the LPG installer (and their related defects and warranty responsibility) fits into all of the above warranty-liability mess is anyone's guess. It doesn't take too much imagining to think of a few scenarios leading to dispute:

Let's take the terminal engine damage caused to Mr Smith's brand-new Honda Accord Euro (Wheels coty btw) from, say, overheating.

Eg: was this damage caused and thus to be covered by: the vehicle manufacturer, or the importer, or the LPG kit maker, or the installer!

Mate at least Ford spells it out in plain english:

Falcon Warranty
The Ford Express New Vehicle Warranty specifically excludes any defect in any vehicle component that is caused by or attributable to, or to the use of, an aftermarket LPG conversion. If a conversion to LPG is carried out we believe it is highly likely to result in damage to components including but not limited to the following:
Pistons, con-rods, rings, intake and exhaust valves and seats, engine bearings and seals, spark plugs, petrol fuel system components including pump and injectors, air intake system, any further backfire-related damage including but not limited to the hood.

The term "fooling customers" might also consist of disputed accountability towards what may end up proving to be a dubious aftermarket warranty, leading to 'serious consequences' for hapless Dutch warranty-claim owners caught in the middle and at risk of being 'passed around' the various (dis)interested factions.

Unlike various Dutch car importers, perhaps, you can bet your bottom dollar that the customers of both Ford and Holden who buy their factory-designed LPG systems at least have the absolute surety of a full factory-backed warranty from the vehicle manufacturer itself. Factory testing to major-manufacturer standards for engine durability in the long term is also a consideration, as is emissions compliance

Btw did you know that Ford and Holden LPG engines also include substantial internal modifications to enhance durability (something that importers and/or aftermarket suppliers may not provide)

For Ford's shitty E-Gas this includes:

• Pistons: Higher Compression ratio
• Con Rods: Stiffened to cope with increased loads [h/d turbo-spec]
• Intake Valves: LPG specification for hotter operating conditions
• Valve Seats: LPG specification for hotter operating conditions
• Air Intake System: Backfire and fire resistant air cleaner box and filter.
• Fuel System: Tanks, lines, converter, balance hose and Electronic Throttle Body
• Engine Oil, Spark Plugs: Unique LPG specification
• Powertrain Control Module (PCM): Unique to drive LPG system solenoids and stepper motor.

[henk4]

I honestly do not know all the answers, I have asked some question on the Citroen C5 forum.

[SlickHolden]

It has purely been due to FoA finding itself inextricably stuck (as in locked) into the middle of an extremely long running legal dispute regarding LPG injection, between a highly reputable Dutch company, and a certain small-time Oz Company of which I have very little respect. Although initally on a broader scale, AFAIK this dispute has eventually boiled to which company owns the Australian patent, and therefore the AU licensing rights, for gas injection to FoA

Its a very legal situation of which i am no expert, and it has received little publicity. For a legal disclaimer I could be wrong on all the above (and I have misplaced some of my records) so don't quote me or cite this as accurate. But I think this is in essence is what its all about. You know my enthusiasm for LPG, and a mate and I have been following this saga with interest since the early 1990s when I think the AU company was called Docklands but it has since been renamed, IIRC more than once.

IIRC this situation began maybe 15 years ago and would have been dragging on in the courts for at least for all of this century. To date I think it has basically crucified Ford's hopes of offering an advanced OE LPG system for their cars. Which they intended to do looooong ago.

I would be grateful for any further input or info on this subject...

So similar to a club sponsorship say Puma. Your players are stuck with that product until the end of time no matter how new the others are your lumped with it till the end. So no new high tech shoes for FoMoCoAus..

Now i can see why your not total impressed it sounds dirty.

I thought the latest falcon would have vsi, not the old mixer.

The nephew wont fit any falcon after BA or any with traction control with a mixer as the esp/TC causes the LPG to backfire and usually blows the airbox to bits. The VSI setup works well same performance and fuel economy but is expensive compared to a mixer type system

Mate has a VN on lpg. And at times on start up he back fires.. Blew the air box off one day scared shit out of me lol.

[SlickHolden]

Just announced. The winner of the 2008 Wheels Car of the Year is the Honda Accord Euro.
So, last night's ACA did give a big clue.

You partially tipped that Friday night.. Good price features etc.

[IBrake4Rainbows]

Ok. Picked up the Magazine today, and while I'm not entirely happy with the outcome (Basically the Tiguan fell because the boot isn't large enough......go figure)

The Falcon failed because the base model (XT) felt tired despite being brand spanking new, the V8 Model (remember the range is judged as a whole) was considered nose heavy and almost irrelevant considering the performance advantages of a 6, and there were problems that the FG range hadn't fixed from BA, namely the steering column adjustment.

So, essentially, it wasn't a great enough advance over the BA, let alone the VE Commodore.

[motorsportnerd]

Also, the Mazda6 failed due to refinement issues. And the Audi A4 failed due to the law of diminishing returns - the higher up the range they went, the less impressed they were with the value and way they drove. Surprisingly they viewed the base Audi A4 1.8T as the best value and best drive of the range, despite the fact that it was more expensive than top of the range Accord Euro.
On Falcon, the insistence on testing the entire range probably hurt its chances. If it had been solely the G6ET that had been tested, as the pick of the range, it probably would have won. It was the XT and XR8 in particular that let the range down - not the E-Gas variant which wasn't mentioned at all.
As IB4R said, it lost because it was evolutionary and "does not significantly raise the bar for large cars" in the way that the BA did. There were the aforementioned quality concerns (including "unrefined thumps emanating from the diff under full throttle upshifts" in the manual XR6T). They also mentioned safety concerns (lack of curtain airbags and the fact that the ESP on the XT was skittish and "not up to Ford Australia's usual standards". Refinement on the XT was mentioned as an issue with "the amount of suspension and tyre noise transmitted into the cabin".
Worth noting that the cover headline is "Shock! Why Falcon's not Car of the Year".
This result really does parallel the failure of the XD to win the award.

I mentioned that the Falcon's extensive range and Wheels' insistence on judging the whole range was one of the reasons it didn't win. This also affected the A4's (six variants tested) and Mazda6's (4 versions tested) chances when compared to the rather more focused Euro range (just 2 versions tested). So the Euro was literally able to put its best foot forward without a weak link in the range to cost its chances.

Another point, in regards to the Volkswagen Tiguan, the "lack of boot space..which ultimately swayed most judges not to vote "Tiguan" when it came to choosing COTY 2008 winner". My emphasis on the "most". There was no mention in the Audi or Mazda6 write ups of judges voting for them. This implies that the VW scored at least one vote, and was hence most likely second to the Euro.

Finally, the final seven (not eight like last year) were Accord Euro, Tiguan, Mazda6, Audi A4, Honda Jazz, Honda Accord and Ford Falcon.
Three Honda's in the top seven.

Looking at the Wheels website, the Euro's victory is not particularly popular. Ford fans are outraged. Euro fans can't understand how the Audi didn't win. And the others are amazed the Mazda6 with its wider range of variants and good diesel option didn't win.

[motorsportnerd]

Link to the comments on the Wheels' website here: Wheels - Honda Accord Euro wins <i>Wheels</i> Car of the Year 2008

They really are an unhappy bunch. There's some particularly snobbish Euro fans whining on there as well.

[IBrake4Rainbows]

The A4 could never had stood up to the Value argument.

As I see it the Accord Euro was simply the most competant across all points of the compass - never the best, but never the worst either.

[fpv_gtho]

I'd like to know how the Falcon lost points for being too evolutionary whilst the equally evolutionary Euro won.

[IBrake4Rainbows]

I was discussing with Brendon earlier about how some of the criticisms levelled at one car could be levelled easily at another.

The evolutionary one was raised also.

[fpv_gtho]

These issues have come up with past winners as well. VE had the same issues of poor base spec and a dud engine in the lineup that theyve criticised FG for, as well as questionable gains over the competition overall