Pushrod or OHC

[henk4]

As part of my last post I included an image of a 1.8L SC Miata motor next to a 5.7L LS1. They are very similar in size.

A bit deceptive as for instance the exhaust prominently come out of the side of the Miata engine, while they are hidden underneat the V of the LS1. Of course an inline four should have about the same length of a V8 (two joined inline fours)

GM’s 60 degree 3.4L V6 (not a motor that turns enthusiast hearts) looks positively tiny in the Miata’s engine bay.

Should be if the bay is wide enough, and yes I was less than enthusiatic about a Pontiac Grand-Am Ram Air that I drove for three weeks last year, both in terms of performance as well in terms of fuel economy.

This motor isn’t going to win the Hp/L wars, but it does have benefits compared to a DOHC V6. Its valve train and head layout result in more compact packaging (presumably it’s about the size of a 3L DOHC V6).

So where does it put the two additional cylinders? I don't assume that the width between the cylinders of the V6 is so generous that total engine space would be able accomodate 4 cylinders per per block.

Also, given its extra displacement I would expect good low end torque. Given that it’s meant to be the size and weight of a V6 (3.0-3.5L was the common V6 of the time) it’s 300HP would be on par with the 3.5L V6’s offered by Nissan and Honda.

That is somewhat stating the obvious, because we agree that displacement provides additional torque. The XV8 will have similar power but higher torque than the Japanese V6's you make the comparison with[b]

You are correct, it was 3.5 when they banned turbos.
again not totally correct, under the turbo regime, the option was running either 3.0 litre (the Cosworth DFV) or 1.5 litre turbo, when finally everyone had switched to turbos they were replaced by a new 3.5 litre class, that has subsequently gone back to 3.0 litre again

France was the first to do it. I assume the other European nations followed suit.

France stiill has a sort of fiscal horsepower charging system, never figured out how it really worked. Anyway the Citroen 2CV (2 Fiscal horsepower) always remained the 2CV inspite of a 50% increase in displacement over the years I am sure Matra can inform us about how it actually works

However, the bigger engine doesn’t have to cost more. The cost difference between a 2.5L and 3.0L Ford Duratec engine is virtually negligible.

That is an obvious wxample, just as the other ones you gave, just increasing the displacement without fundamentally changing the engine layout will not cost much, and indeed what the consumer pays for is addiitonal prestige generated from the bigger engine

Finally do you really think a S/DOHC inline four is more expensive to build than a pushrod V6? Would like to see that being supported by some facts and figures

It’s tougher to compare things like a pushrod V6 to a DOHC I4 because their construction is different. However, in the case of the Chevy Malibu or Pontiac G6 vs a Toyota Camry, the V6 power GM cars cost about the same (out the door price) as the I4 power Camry.

That is not the correct comparison, there are many I4 cars much more expensive than the mass produced GM V6-es

As for construction, it’s a tough call. The V6 block is probably more expensive. It has more pistons and rods. It has two heads but they each require less machining so it’s not twice the price. The single cam cost half what the two cams cost. The 12 valves are cheaper than 16. It’s a tough call. Even if it is more expensive than an I4 (it very well could be) it is unquestionable cheaper than a DOHC V6. That slots the motor in between an I4 and a DOHC V6 in costs. Perhaps I don’t want the extra cost of a DOHC V6 but I’m willing to pay a few hundred more for a pushrod V6 that delivers similar mileage but more power than the I4 option (a win-win scenario).[/QUOTE]

Again here you buy an extra two cylinders for getting the same mileage, (which you will only get if you will not use the additional power of the V6), so why go for it then, save yourself a couple of hundred dollars. (In Europe such price difference would be more in the order of a couple of thousands though.

[henk4]

Well I was todl that it was power and space occupied that mattered, not anything else.

Since when do you give priority to what you are told over your own opinion?

[culver]

Henk4,

I included the pictures of the LS1 vs Miata motor just to show how small an LS1 really is. While the Miata’s iron block motor is certainly not light, it’s dimensionally close to many current I4 motors. The GM V8 is only moderately wider, no longer or taller. Yes, the I4 exhaust manifold has to come strait out the side and that makes the engine look wider, but the V8 manifold comes out at 45 degrees thus the V8 manifold doesn’t add as much width as you might think. The fact that Ford’s 5.0 Mustang engine fits under the hood of a Miata suggests that it’s a reasonably compact motor. Also, the V8 (and other V motors) can pack the intake plumbing in between the cylinder banks. The I4 must hang at least part of it out the side.
I’m not saying a V8 should be smaller than a 1.8L I4, I’m just showing how compact the LS1 really is. The company that took those pictures is now doing BMW I6 to LS engine swaps. Again they find the motor fits nicely under the hood of a car designed for a smaller displacement motor (well I6’s are quite long).

The GM 3.4L motors were originally developed for the same reason as the VW VR6 motor. GM wanted a V6 that could be fit in a smaller engine bay designed primarily for an I4. From what I’ve gathered the latest version used in the Malibu (now 3.5L) is a decent motor. The motor isn’t anything special but you can’t nock a torquey 200hp motor that according to Consumer Reports got the same real world (observed, not EPA) mileage as a Camry I4.

The XV8 is a 75 degree V8. Using a pushrod head helps keep the height and width down (notice how in the picture of the two Ford motors the 302 heads seemed to be wider on the intake rather than exhaust side). I assume they chose the smaller than standard bank angle for the same reason. They get around the balance issues by combining the oil pump drives with balance shafts. Rather clever. Chances are the motor would be a bit longer than a similar power V6. Tough to tell since I’ve only read a few articles about the motor.


Matra,
I’ve never really looked at the A610 motor before. Very impressive little guy. But…
that is basically a racing motor. Mercedes (well Ilmor with Mercedes’ money) managed to make a 3.4L pushrod V8 that weighed under 300lbs, and even smaller than the A610. It produced 1024 turbo hp and won Indy the first time it raced.

Really, neither of these are mass produced motors that will be installed in thousands of cars. Also, keep in mind that the LS2 actually weighs around 450lb. The ~500lb weight is a fully dressed motor (including alternator, and accessories) with the standard flywheel. The automatic version of the motor is lighter because the torque converter acts as a flywheel thus no need to attach one to the motor. Instead the motor has a flex plate. Now in LS7 trim the motor is still around 490lbs and produces 500hp.

Really what is more significant would be comparing the weight of the LS1 to other ~300-350hp motors. That would include some of the 3.5L V6’s and 4+ L V8s. Compared to those motors the LS family is looking good.

Again, I think the LS7 vs BMW V10 is a good comparison because both motors will be in fully warranted product cars.

Remember, as I said in my original post, these are not absolute rules they are generalizations. A race derived motor would definitely qualify as an exception.

[henk4]

Culver, the 5.0 Mustang engine mentioned is that the new OHC version or the old one OHV version?
What about the mileage of a CamryV6 compared to the GM engine? I got a 175 BHP version of the GM engine which returned 11-12 km/litre (25-28 mpg) on holiday style long distance driving and sticking to the speed limits, which may look impressive in American eyes, but not to a European driver. (I wasn't complaining though because even in Canada fuel costs are considerably lower than here)
I am almost sure the XV8 would be longer than any V6.

And btw the Alpine engine was based a standard, relatively mass produced Renault unit (the Douvrin design) that was also used in other cars (Lancia, Volvo)

[Juggs]

on the list of motors that i have completley torn apart and rebuilt are a GM 350, ford 302, ford 4.6 SOHC and chrysler(?) 3.4 DOHC. so having gone thru both types of motors i can tell anybody who says OHC is just as easy to work on or less complex than a pushrod motor doesnt know what their talking about. i mean its not that bad but like on a DOHC motor you have to make sure 4 cams are timed correctly and then make sure the belt is timed correctly too and put all that on without messing up the timing. also yes...OHC motors are way bigger than pushrod motors. now that being said i would like to add my 2 cents and say that i like a nice OHC motor myself. theres nothin wrong with the tried and true pushrod motor but i like having more than 2 valves. the problem with 2 valves is as the bigger the valve gets the less velocity you get from the incoming air. if you dont have a lot of velocity it doesnt matter how much air your getting in there. with something like a 4 valve design you can suck up as much air as a big 2 valve design but still have good velocity since you have 2 small openings as opposed to 2 big ones. its like you were breathing thru a big straw....you could blow out easy but the air coming out wouldnt be moving very fast. now blow thru a small straw..it'll be harder to blow thru but the air coming out will be coming out fast. now you use 2 small straws and you can move the air out easy and it will be coming out fast. see what i mean?

[Matra et Alpine]

Matra,
I’ve never really looked at the A610 motor before. Very impressive little guy. But…
that is basically a racing motor. Mercedes (well Ilmor with Mercedes’ money) managed to make a 3.4L pushrod V8 that weighed under 300lbs, and even smaller than the A610. It produced 1024 turbo hp and won Indy the first time it raced.

True ther Sodemo engine is a race prepped version.
BUT the blovka dn layout is the SAME AS MY A610 which was NOT a race car. It was a sportscar/GT 2+2
As stated back in '90 it produced 250bhp. With current off the shelf turbo and ECU management it is now capable of 350-400 in GTA form and is a very common "upgrade". I cite this as a current manufacturer coudl chose tthese new technologies with no signinicvant change to the engine itself to TRY to balance the LS1 comparisions against other motors rather than repeating that oft-quote Miata picture - one clearly 'chosen' to show the LS1 in the best light

Really, neither of these are mass produced motors that will be installed in thousands of cars.

erm, the PRV V6 engine was a joint development by Peugeot Renault and Volvo and turned up in millions of vehicles. The 'performance' versions in the Alpien and the Venturi.
It IS a mass-producde motor - granted the Sodemo 600+hp one is more "specialised"

Really what is more significant would be comparing the weight of the LS1 to other ~300-350hp motors. That would include some of the 3.5L V6’s and 4+ L V8s. Compared to those motors the LS family is looking good.

That's why I cited the A610 use of the engine first. SAME physical dimensions !! down 50-100 hp on modern motors but clearly resotrable with off the shelf modern ECU maps.

Remember, as I said in my original post, these are not absolute rules they are generalizations. A race derived motor would definitely qualify as an exception.

the engine was standard production and then race-modified. NOT the otehr way round. This isn't an Enzo

[Matra et Alpine]

i can tell anybody who says OHC is just as easy to work on or less complex than a pushrod motor doesnt know what their talking about. i mean its not that bad but like on a DOHC motor you have to make sure 4 cams are timed correctly and then make sure the belt is timed correctly too and put all that on without messing up the timing. also yes...

Change the cam in an in-block engine and it is MUCH harder than OHC
So for serious use the slightly extra time to re-time them is irrelevant and especially if a vernier gear is used.
IF access is easy to the engine ( it's this that makes the A610 a biatch ) then timing is VERY easy and simple, timing marks are there to setup and install. It can seem DAUNTING for sure, but it is NOT 4 times harder or longer
Once used to it, it's REAL easy. Check a pitlane on a Formula Ford 1600 race day and see ALL the guys replaceing/adjusting cams. It's a 10 minute job to swap a cam on a CVH
Siounds like you've done one and like many things the first time it does seem hard. We have no issues pulling the heads off the cars to check piston and valve condition if any concerns. We've often pulled the head off the CVH on the Quantum just to judge the condition of the engine. We woudlnt' do that if re-timing it was "hard"
The basic timing is determined by the marks and it's only abotu aligning them before installing the belt/chain. THEN for the last bit of performance you can chose to use vernier cams to eek out the last little bit. Again somethign done easier on an OHC as the verniers are up where you can see them and not deep in the block

OHC motors are way bigger than pushrod motors.

Not a fact. See the A610 3 litre A610 engine - same dimesnsion as the SOdemo 600hp engine shown here
The size comaprison is quite selective and that Miata engine pic does the rounds so often everyoen thinks there are hundresed
YES, the LS1 engine is compact, but not only because it is in-block cam, that head is a VERY tidy design for the airflow it achieves.

[culver]

Matra,

Which parts are production carry over? While this engine may be production based it has design traits that make even BMW’s V10 look plebian. For instance, the fly wheel looks to be about 210mm [8.3in] in diameter. The clutch disk of a 1.8L Miata is 215mm. The whole flywheel is closer to 12” [304mm]. That’s for a low power 1.8L motor. Most cars will have the larger flywheel at least in part because the manufactures don’t want to use multi plate clutches. The A610’s small flywheel is also going to save 10 lbs or more compared to a conventional flywheel.
The accessory drive is race motor type. Note that the cam belts have separate pulleys offset from the centerline of the crank. Common production motors would have both belts going around a pulley attached to the end of the crankshaft. Also, this motor has no provisions for belt driven accessories. Presumably the accessories are gear driven and mounted low, along side the sump. It also looks like a dry sump motor. Dry sumps both improve oiling under cornering loads and allow for a lower profile oil pan. While the LS7 is dry sump, its LS siblings are wet sump. One other thing, in order to protect the timing belts, production cars will have covers. This motor saves length and weight by leaving them off (perfectly acceptable for a race motor).
If you have some pictures of the motor this one was derived from I would like to see them. I am curious how much they changed.

Henk4,
The Ford 5.0 I mentioned was the older “302”. The mod engine (which I really like) doesn’t come close to fitting.
The current GM 3.5L 60 degree V6 is EPA rated at 22 city, 32 highway as installed in the Malibu (4 spd auto only). Consumer Reports saw a real world mileage of 26. Car and Driver saw 24 in the moderately heavier Malibu Max. The 3500 has improved significantly over the older 3400 that you drove. The platform mate SAAB 93 with a 175hp 2.0L turbo and auto returns 21/30 EPA (auto). With out print magazines in hand it’s harder to find observed mileage figures but I assure you most European cars in the states do not match the Malibu’s numbers. I know this isn’t stellar mileage compared to the European cars you get in Europe but it is better it’s better than what most European cars (typically equipped with the more powerful motor options) get here. It’s certainly better than what I saw from my 200hp ‘00 Contour SVT (Mondeo ST200) and similar to what I see with my 185hp, ’97 SAAB 900. Both of my cars were 5spds. Compared to similar size and powered cars it’s pretty good and Consumer Reports (who seems to have it out for GM) noted its mileage.

As to ease of service, I have pulled the head on 1 pushrod motor (1.6L Ford Kent) and a few DOHC I4 motors. I don’t really consider one to be easier than the other. The DOHC motors were more work but not to the point that I cared. Most of the differences were in accessing brackets and other randomly placed bolts rather than anything really having to do with the valve train. I also know that it’s much easier to change a cam shaft in an LT1 powered Camaro than in most DOHC V8s. At the same time changing the spark plugs in a Camaro take hours because two of them are very hard to get at. Most of the time ease of service is more about access to parts rather than anything else.

Again I will reiterate these are generalizations. I’m not saying that any particular OHV motor will or will not be “better” than this or that DOHC motor, only that when used in the right design it can be an attractive option (BMW V10 vs GM LS7: GM, same power, less mass).

[culver]

Matra,

I've been doing some searching on the A610. Looks like a cool car. I've heard about them in the past but as we haven't had any French cars in the US for some time. I tried to read some reviews but my French and German reading skills don't exist. I did have one question though. The motor you showed was from the race version correct? I found info on A610's through about '91 but nothing later. Are they out of production? The '91 car had a SOHC 90 degree V6. The motor you showed looked like a 60 degree block with DOHC heads. Which parts are carry over parts?

[Slicks]

First, I want people to send me money as I've fodun THE solution for the A610

The standard A610 is ~ 260bhp, 260 ft lbs from the 3 litres V6. It in standard road trim is 0-60 in 5.5

The engine is SMALLER than the LS1 AND it is a OHC design

OMG, what a surprise! A 3L V6 is smaller than a 5.7-7.0L V8, no way!
For an even comparison try and find an equally displaced V8 with OHC.

That was an engine designed and setup in 1990.
Today, there is a variant of the engine available producing 600bhp and 500 ft lbs from a compnay called Sodemo.

600hp TT, you forgot to mention. How much do you think one of these racing engine would cost?
I know you can put a single turbo on an LS1(for $4,000) and run 7psi of boost to get 500hp, and 550ft-lbs of torque with the stock engine.
BTW, the site lists that the TT engine only lasts 5500km before overhaul.

Anyway to stop this nonsense about comparing old japanesse cast blocks with '
new'
LS1 and sayign how small it is let's just share the engine size with you ...

Engine Length Width Height in inches and weight
LS1 - 27.3" -- 30.4" -- 25.3" -- 500lbs
PRV - 16" ---- 24.5" -- 24" ---- 360lbs
( LS1 taken from LS1TECH web site - happy to be corrected if they're wrong )

LS1: 25.25"L, 24-25"H , 20.5 W" 390lbs (undressed) 497lbs fully dressed according to GM. And supposedly the LS2 and LS6 are about 15lbs lighter than the LS1. So the 405hp LS6 is about the same weight, close to the same size, and MUCH cheaper and more reliable. Thanks for showing nothing.
On top of that the V6 TT engine is using a dry sump system, that knocks off a few inches from the height.

oh LOOK, it is SMALLER.

But, WAIT it can't be it is a DOHC

it must weigh LOTS then , oh it doesn't. But wait THAT doesn't include the Turbos. So we'll add 2 then at 8 lbs each - assuming nothing esoteric ( or it coudl be half that. So
it's not QUITE as low as 360, it's about 375

So, tell me again WHY a pushrod makes and engine smaller and lighter and better ??

See now we can compare like with like and NOT some 25 year old design

Oh look, its a V6 with about half the displacment, made for racing.
So AGAIN Ill tell you, stop comparing small displaced racing engines to larger displaced street engines. Pushrod engines will be smaller with the same size block, its friggen logic!

[Slicks]

A bit deceptive as for instance the exhaust prominently come out of the side of the Miata engine, while they are hidden underneat the V of the LS1. Of course an inline four should have about the same length of a V8 (two joined inline fours)

Not deceptive at all, thats Mazda's choice to put the exhaust there. Fully dressed engines are what counts, because that is what goes into the car.

Should be if the bay is wide enough, and yes I was less than enthusiatic about a Pontiac Grand-Am Ram Air that I drove for three weeks last year, both in terms of performance as well in terms of fuel economy.

We've all heard your stories about the Grand AM rental car you got. Stop complaining about it, its a RENTAL car. Its NOT a performance car, it competes with the likes of the Civic and such, its a kids beater car. And the economy you got was with the 4 speed auto box, congradulations, stop comparing it to 5 and 6 speed diesel european spec cars.

[Juggs]

matra thank you for setting me straight on a couple things..however i wonder if you agree with what i said about airflow characteristics on a 4 vavle OHC vs 2 valve OHV

[Matra et Alpine]

Matra,

Which parts are production carry over?

Not sure, unlikely to be anything except the block. Given the power and revs. French parts aren't known for being over-engineered The A610 was SOHC on each bank, the Venturi heads were DOHC on each - hence they got 350-450 bh in 1993 with the Atlantique and 400. So the heads are likely more common with there's !

While this engine may be production based it has design traits that make even BMW’s V10 look plebian. For instance, the fly wheel looks to be about 210mm [8.3in] in diameter. The clutch disk of a 1.8L Miata is 215mm. The whole flywheel is closer to 12” [304mm]. That’s for a low power 1.8L motor. Most cars will have the larger flywheel at least in part because the manufactures don’t want to use multi plate clutches.

AND because a big heavy flywheel stops an engine being cammy and buzzy and libale to stall with poor clutch control. It's VERY common over here for us to have lightweight flywheels. I can't say for the cars delivered to the US customers BTW the standard 1.8 Miata is good for 250 bhp. Friends g/f has just turbo'ed her Miata and that's the crecommended clutch until she ups the injectors again I'll get you size and weight of it as they're chanigng it today !!

The accessory drive is race motor type.

I'd rephrase that. It's not CHEAP ENGEERING type

production motors would have both belts going around a pulley attached to the end of the crankshaft.

NOT all production motors do that, again if you want to cheapen construction and complicate engine rebuilds then single crank, BUT if the desire is for the best ALL-ROUND solution for build AND repair then they don't.
These are many things which are forgotten about when folks compare engines

Also, this motor has no provisions for belt driven accessories. Presumably the accessories are gear driven and mounted low, along side the sump.

Pretty standard with modern engine designs nowadays.

While the LS7 is dry sump, its LS siblings are wet sump.

I wasn't sure as the LS1 looks to have a very shallow sump, so if it's not then it's like the A610 which uses scengers pumps but is not a true dry sump.

One other thing, in order to protect the timing belts, production cars will have covers. This motor saves length and weight by leaving them off (perfectly acceptable for a race motor).

Covers are plastic and weigh less than 1/2 lbs total
and don't increase an engine size by more than a cm ( 1/2 In ) !!!

If you have some pictures of the motor this one was derived from I would like to see them. I am curious how much they changed.

I've got the A610 service manual, I'll scan and post some later.

The DOHC motors were more work but not to the point that I cared. Most of the differences were in accessing brackets and other randomly placed bolts rather than anything really having to do with the valve train.

Concur.
[QUOTE] I also know that it’s much easier to change a cam shaft in an LT1 powered Camaro than in most DOHC V8s. At the same time changing the spark plugs in a Camaro take hours because two of them are very hard to get at. Most of the time ease of service is more about access to parts rather than anything else.[?QUOTE]
Yep, the plumbing on modern engines can make the simplest jobs a real bitch
not just modern though as the Bagheera has an opening 24" x 18" 2 " above the gnein and THAT IS IT A lot of jobs are actually easier by dropping the engine out

Again I will reiterate these are generalizations. I’m not saying that any particular OHV motor will or will not be “better” than this or that DOHC motor, only that when used in the right design it can be an attractive option (BMW V10 vs GM LS7: GM, same power, less mass).

I'd be intriqued to investigate the factors in the engine. Liek how smooth IS the LS7 versus the V10 ? or torque delivery ?? WHY woudl BMW chose it over a V8 - and I don't buy into the "selling technology" line as that's just bs

[Matra et Alpine]

OMG, what a surprise! A 3L V6 is smaller than a 5.7-7.0L V8, no way!
For an even comparison try and find an equally displaced V8 with OHC.

hey DOUGHHEAD grow up and ABSORB some information rather than just knee-JERK reactions

You wanted to compare only power and volume of the engine - remember the BIG argument about hp/l beign irrelevant ? So how come you NOW want capacity taken into account ? The 3litre V6 was matchign the power and torque

You've just made yourself look silly again by NOT READING

600hp TT, you forgot to mention. How much do you think one of these racing engine would cost?

I'm trying to find out, but it won't be cheap for sure.
BUT the Venturi Atlanatique and 400 and 500 ran the same engien and it was NOT expensive. You've already been GIVEN the details of the variants fo the block.
BUT not at the LS1 prices which have huge colume benefits.

I know you can put a single turbo on an LS1(for $4,000) and run 7psi of boost to get 500hp, and 550ft-lbs of torque with the stock engine.
BTW, the site lists that the TT engine only lasts 5500km before overhaul.

Yep, it's a race version and with RACE engines you dont' strip when they NEED overhaul, you strip to judge what MIGHT break "soon". So it's not quite as bad as it seems.
The A610 and Atlantique have NO lsited mileage for engine strip downs. So the 250-450 bhp ranges of THOSE engines isn't in question.
I DO wish tou woudel stop pickign on ONE piece of information provided, ignoring the rest adn then making assumptions. It gets very tirign for the rest of us having to spoon feed you. Compare YOUR responses and Culvers - ther is a adifference - Culvber has clearly WORKED on engines and considered the benefits rather than read 1960s magazines

LS1: 25.25"L, 24-25"H , 20.5 W" 390lbs (undressed) 497lbs fully dressed according to GM. And supposedly the LS2 and LS6 are about 15lbs lighter than the LS1. So the 405hp LS6 is about the same weight, close to the same size, and MUCH cheaper and more reliable. Thanks for showing nothing.
On top of that the V6 TT engine is using a dry sump system, that knocks off a few inches from the height.

Yep, 2 INCHES - might even only be an inche for a scavenger system - go BACK and compare the sizes. It was a HELLUVA lot more than 2" difference
Do you even THINK these things therough before posting ????

Oh look, its a V6 with about half the displacment, made for racing.
So AGAIN Ill tell you, stop comparing small displaced racing engines to larger displaced street engines. Pushrod engines will be smaller with the same size block, its friggen logic!

Look wil you PLEASE stop beeing a JERK with that knee
YES the race engine was given only because it was the first time I've seen the PRV publicly shown dimensions. After all if I TOLD you the A610 engine was that size you are so narrow minded you'd have called me a liar. AND then I'd have got VERY angry at you (again).
I ALSO pointed out that the BLOCK wa common.
I pointed out the range of powers available.
I pointed out FACTS.
The block was NOT made for racing - you were TOLD THAT
THAT engine is, the A610 isn't, nor the Venturi !!! YOU WERE TOLD THAT !!!
The EGNINE IS a streeet engine and until you can grow up and actually READ and ABSORB before commenting get your sorry ass out of this thread !!!!

[Matra et Alpine]

Matra,

I've been doing some searching on the A610. Looks like a cool car. I've heard about them in the past but as we haven't had any French cars in the US for some time. I tried to read some reviews but my French and German reading skills don't exist.

Drop me a contact by PM and I can mail you some stuff if you want.
Also see
www.alpinerenault.com
www.alpinerenault.co.uk
www. renaultalpine.co.uk

I did have one question though. The motor you showed was from the race version correct?

It's actually a French tuning firm who have developed the engine further.
It's the only time I've seen published dimensions for the engine.
SOME members here have a propensity to call other liars when they present personal evidence and esperience. So having found that picture, I posted it HOPING that "some members" woudl act grown up.
Just ignore every second post from me ( because it will be a childish reply to the children ) and this thread will be fine

I found info on A610's through about '91 but nothing later. Are they out of production?

Sadly yes, the last A610 rolled off the Dieppe line in 1995.
Venturi took the successful engine and transmission in 91 to create the Atlantique and the follow-on cars and improved the engine with DOHC on each bank, ( they may have changed the block angle too ) larger valves, better breathing and later a twin turbo setup.
They also were smart and turned the engine around making it MID engine and not REAR as in the A610.

The '91 car had a SOHC 90 degree V6. The motor you showed looked like a 60 degree block with DOHC heads. Which parts are carry over parts?

I've actually contacted the company to inquire as I'm currrently facing an engine rebuild on the A610 and want to know that very question