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  #211  
Old 04-20-2007, 05:58 PM
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More guns still leads to suicides and murders of family members and where there are guns...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/1568607.stm[/QUOTE]


That is a myth and has been disproven. In the U.S., at least.
http://www.lizmichael.com/ninemyth.htm
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  #212  
Old 04-20-2007, 06:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fleet 500 View Post
That is a myth and has been disproven. In the U.S., at least.
http://www.lizmichael.com/ninemyth.htm


Oh you can't be serious...
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  #213  
Old 04-20-2007, 06:06 PM
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even better:

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Originally from Pennsylvania, now hailing from Casa Grande, Arizona, I graduated from the Ivy League University of Pennsylvania, from Wharton,the number one business school in the country according to Business Week. I co-founded a computer company called Analon, Inc. which manufactures computers and engages in Systems Integration. I have been the Senior Executive Producer for Mary Flash Productions, which produced the television show Lady Liberty, which I co-hosted, and backed several music productions including my own band. I began my career as an Accountant specializing in Tax Law and Preparation, and still hire tax clients. I have been an entrepreneur in the clothing industry, the real estate industry, a professional vocalist, composer, and lyricist. I used to be a wrestling reporter for Pro-Wrestling Digest and have occasionally wrestled professionally as "The Taskmistress". I am also a marketing executive for Melaleuca. And I am the chief webmistress of this site, LizMichael.com .
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  #214  
Old 04-20-2007, 06:34 PM
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Originally Posted by 2ndclasscitizen View Post


Oh you can't be serious...
If you check the bottom of the page, you will see source.

There is also the same info out there with the same statistics.
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  #215  
Old 04-20-2007, 06:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Fleet 500 View Post
There is also the same info out there with the same statistics.
Like this one:
http://www.cato.org/dailys/05-13-00.html
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  #216  
Old 04-20-2007, 07:03 PM
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Gun accidents involving children are actually at record lows
Yeah...how about there shouldn't be ANY accidents with guns involving children.
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  #217  
Old 04-20-2007, 08:20 PM
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Originally Posted by The_Canuck View Post
Yeah...how about there shouldn't be ANY accidents with guns involving children.
yeah man, those children should be locked away in a cupboard or safe so the guns don't come across them by accident.
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  #218  
Old 04-21-2007, 07:18 AM
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Originally Posted by clutch-monkey View Post
yeah man, those children should be locked away in a cupboard or safe so the guns don't come across them by accident.
I approve this message.
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  #219  
Old 04-21-2007, 08:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fleet 500 View Post
That is a myth and has been disproven. In the U.S., at least.
http://www.lizmichael.com/ninemyth.htm
Once again I think we've reached a stand-off. You believe that confederate praising site - keeping up with the debate will just be a waste of time.
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  #220  
Old 04-22-2007, 05:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Fleet 500 View Post
Yes, because where I live, even if you are a trained soldier (now a civilian), you would still need a permit to carry a concealed weapon.
But you were comparing the laws to the U.K. Stay on track.

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Originally Posted by Fleet 500 View Post
Yet there are those who believe that guns are the cause of violent crime. If that were so, then the violent crime in Switzerland would be much higher than that in the U.K.
I don’t. I believe the proliferation of them in a society prone to violence is illogical and unnecessarily dangerous.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fleet 500 View Post
More guns still leads to suicides and murders of family members and where there are guns...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/1568607.stm

That is a myth and has been disproven. In the U.S., at least.
http://www.lizmichael.com/ninemyth.htm[/QUOTE]

Crap. That site posts a list of ridiculous statements and sets about disproving them in the main by referring to Gary Klecks work of creative fiction.
Point Blank: Guns and Violence in America.

Another NRA pinup boy for those who don’t know -

Gary Kleck (born March 2, 1951) is a criminologist at Florida State University who is an expert on the links between guns, violence and gun control laws in the United States.
Dr. Gary Kleck, FSU Criminologist, with FDLE firearms display
He has done statistical analysis of crime in the United States and argues that while in 1993 there were about four hundred thousand crimes committed with guns, there were approximately 2.5 million crimes in which victims used guns for self-protection. This figure was later disputed.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Kleck

One advocate of the value of handguns for self-defense is Gary Kleck, professor of criminology at Florida State University in Tallahassee. Kleck and his colleague Mark Gertz claim their survey research indicates that civilians use guns in self-defense up to 2.5 million times a year. Naturally enough, the NRA and the gun industry have widely cited Kleck’s work as proof of the value of owning a gun. But Dr. David Hemenway, a professor at Harvard’s School of Public Health, dissected the work of Kleck and Gertz in The Journal of Criminal Law & Criminology, concluding that their survey contained ”a
huge overestimation bias” and that their estimate is “highly exaggerated.” Hemenway applied Kleck and Gertz’s methodology to a 1994 ABC News/Washington Post survey in which people were asked if they had ever seen an alien spacecraft or come into direct contact with a space alien. He
demonstrated that, by the application of Kleck and Gertz’s methodology, one would conclude that almost 20 million Americans have seen a spacecraft from another planet and more than a million have actually met space aliens.


http://www.consumerfed.org/pdfs/self_defense.pdf

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Originally Posted by Fleet 500 View Post
Feel free to take some points out of that for discussion. Merely posting links with no narrative is lazy and pointless.
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  #221  
Old 04-22-2007, 06:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Pando View Post
Once again I think we've reached a stand-off. You believe that confederate praising site - keeping up with the debate will just be a waste of time.
Except that actual statistics back up what that "confederate praising site" posts. Unlike the wacko leftist sites.
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  #222  
Old 04-22-2007, 06:26 PM
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Originally Posted by crisis View Post
[I]Gary Kleck (born March 2, 1951) is a criminologist at Florida State University who is an expert on the links between guns, violence and gun control laws in the United States.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Kleck
Oh, wikipedia. The website in which anyone can contribute information and "facts" with it being validated.

Quote:
Feel free to take some points out of that for discussion. Merely posting links with no narrative is lazy and pointless.
The facts and statistics speak for themselves.
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  #223  
Old 04-22-2007, 06:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fleet 500 View Post
Except that actual statistics back up what that "confederate praising site" posts. Unlike the wacko leftist sites.
Fleet, firstly it is painfully obvious that the "Nine Myths" article is nothing like a rational, balanced statistical analysis; it is a polemic from a blatant bias standpoint that cherry picks a few random statistics to back up its ridiculously one-sided claims.

Secondly, did you even look at the references in the article footnotes? Not a single quoted study was written within the last 12 years. Most are from either the 80s or early 90s, a couple from the 70s and even one from 1969!!! To cherry pick a few stats from relatively ancient and hopelessly outdated articles and attempt to apply them to a modern situation and debate is about as pathetic as it can possibly get in journalistic terms. It's as poor, as cynical and as manipulative an attempt at "journalism" as you're ever likely to find on the subject.

Still, if it makes you happy to believe what this Liz Michael woman is saying then go ahead, carry on deluding yourself.
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  #224  
Old 04-22-2007, 06:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Jack_Bauer View Post
Fleet, firstly it is painfully obvious that the "Nine Myths" article is nothing like a rational, balanced statistical analysis; it is a polemic from a blatant bias standpoint that cherry picks a few random statistics to back up its ridiculously one-sided claims.

Secondly, did you even look at the references in the article footnotes? Not a single quoted study was written within the last 12 years. Most are from either the 80s or early 90s, a couple from the 70s and even one from 1969!!! To cherry pick a few stats from relatively ancient and hopelessly outdated articles and attempt to apply them to a modern situation and debate is about as pathetic as it can possibly get in journalistic terms. It's as poor, as cynical and as manipulative an attempt at "journalism" as you're ever likely to find on the subject.
Come on, don't give me that. There are more recent figures out there. Perhaps you can post figures which show the ones I posted inaccurate?

Quote:
Still, if it makes you happy to believe what this Liz Michael woman is saying then go ahead, carry on deluding yourself.
Actually, I didn't hear about Liz until I came across her website. I don't necessarily believe here but I do believe facts and statistics.
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  #225  
Old 04-23-2007, 12:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Fleet 500 View Post
Oh, wikipedia. The website in which anyone can contribute information and "facts" with it being validated.
Oh no my friend. Typically you spend precious little time reading the content and look for cop outs. The attached PDF, while posted on Wiki, has various references to authoritative sources.

A 1997 American Journal of Public Health study showed that family members that had a history of buying a handgun from a licensed dealer were twice as likely to die in a suicide or homicide as were persons similarly situated who had no such family history of gun purchase. This increased risk persisted for more than five years after the handgun was purchased.

The New England Journal of Medicine, found that having a gun in
the home made it nearly three times more likely that someone in the family will be killed. This risk is particularly high for women, who are more likely to be killed by a spouse, intimate acquaintance, or close relative.

An Archives of Internal Medicine study found that, with one or more guns in the home, the risk of suicide among women increased nearly five times and the risk of homicide increased more than three times.

Data from the FBI’s Crime in the United States reveals that for every time in 1998 that a civilian used a handgun to kill in self-defense, 50 people lost their lives in handgun homicides alone.


http://www.consumerfed.org/pdfs/self_defense.pdf

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Originally Posted by Fleet 500 View Post
The facts and statistics speak for themselves.
They are neither facts nor statistics. Just clumsily written paraphrases that invite the required response.
You have nothing.
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