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  #46  
Old 09-07-2008, 05:35 PM
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Kitdy Kitdy is offline
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What is the exact rule? I'd say it's arguable that Lewis gained an advantage form cutting the corner, but he then followed the rules and gave the position back - how far back does he have to be? Is that specified?

Apparently Charlie Whiting said McLaren would probably be ok if they gave the position back to Kimi.

EDIT: Did not Nick and possibly others other than Glock pass cars under yellows?

Last edited by Kitdy; 09-07-2008 at 06:21 PM.
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  #47  
Old 09-07-2008, 09:28 PM
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Apparantly there is an unwritten rule that if a driver cuts the chicane, he not only has to give back any positions gained (as Lewis did), but also cannot overtake into the next corner in case there is any suggestion of having gained momentum. Lewis would have taken Kimi on the next corner and in hindsight probably should have waited. However, still a very bad decision and they now need to make the rule clear - cede position AND wait AT LEAST one more corner before attempting to overtake again. McLaren should appeal in order to at least force the FIA to clarify and write the rule clearly.

On the conspiracy side of things, the penalty was deserved as we can't have a McLaren driver winning the WDC, now can we?
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  #48  
Old 09-07-2008, 10:05 PM
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I dont think the penalty's as unfair as being made out, albeit still harsh with its ramifications on the GP win and championship. It initially looked like Hamilton backed out of it to let Raikkonen back, and McLaren claim he was 6km/h slower over the start/finish line, but it didnt seem he kept out of it for long and obviously thats where the focus is and simply whether an advantage was gained rather than simply a position.

If a rule clarification is sought after, perhaps they need to do something about drivers holding speed through tarmac run off. As well as this incident where Hamilton kept flat through the run off as Bus Stop, earlier when he spun into La Source, Raikkonen went wide onto the run off and stayed there rather than coming back onto the straight immediately.
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  #49  
Old 09-07-2008, 10:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kitdy View Post
What is the exact rule? I'd say it's arguable that Lewis gained an advantage form cutting the corner, but he then followed the rules and gave the position back - how far back does he have to be? Is that specified?

Apparently Charlie Whiting said McLaren would probably be ok if they gave the position back to Kimi.

EDIT: Did not Nick and possibly others other than Glock pass cars under yellows?
Hmmm, if Charlie agrees with McLaren on this penalty, this could get ugly
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  #50  
Old 09-08-2008, 02:00 AM
Badsight Badsight is offline
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good job on losing the win

what do you do when your overtake manouver didnt put you in the lead ?

you cut across the track & hardly slow so that your right on the person at the coming brake point


.



face it , he would have had to back off & slot in behind the leading car to stay on the track , & he didnt want too so kept the throttle nailed as he cut across ahread

kimi was the lead car following his line in his corner

at no point was Hamilton in control of the line going in , it was all kimi's . lewis just didnt want to back off enough for the corner = desperation
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  #51  
Old 09-08-2008, 03:39 AM
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I assume you're not a fan of Lewis Hamilton?
Facts are these. First, Hamilton tried to overtake Raikkonen on the outside into the Bustop. Second, Raikkonen did force Lewis wide and gave him no room. This left Lewis with three choices. Hit Raikkonen. Back out of move and cut chicane. Back out of move and slot in behind Raikkonen. Fact, he cut the chicane. Rules say that the driver has to give back any position gained. So, fact, Lewis lifted and let Raikkonen back ahead.

Those are the facts. After that we're dealing with two questions. First, did Lewis lift enough? Six kilometres difference isn't much, especially as he would have lost more if he had backed out and tucked in behind Kimi into the Bustop. But the rules only state that you have to redress the position. This Lewis did.
Second question is, after cutting the chicane, at what point is the driver allowed to have another go at taking the lead? Obviously Lewis should have followed Kimi through Eau Rouge and tried to overtake him into La Combes. But Lewis is a racer. Of course he was going to try and overtake as soon as possible, and there is no doubt the move he put on Kimi into the La Source hairpin was clean.
Logic tells me that this is RACING. And that's exactly what both Kimi and Lewis did. Yes, they both fought hard. And they touched. But only the most hard core of Ferrari fans can tell me that those few corners were not an example of brilliant racing between two very determined drivers.
The rule book is unclear. I just read on GP Week a suggestion that if Bustop hairpin should still have a gravel pit. If it did, Lewis would have backed out and followed Kimi into the Bustop and lost a lot of ground. And we wouldn't be arguing over the move. Tarmac does give the drivers an out.
So, time for the FIA to make the rule absolutely clear. Lewis should not have lost the win for that move. Fined maybe. Warned maybe that if he cut a chicane for a third time this year he'd miss a race. But, he should not have lost the win.
Or do we think that it was fair that Ferrari released Massa unsafely into Adrian Sutil's path in the pitout in Valencia? No penalty there. And no consistency in the FIA's penalties.
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Last edited by motorsportnerd; 09-08-2008 at 03:41 AM.
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  #52  
Old 09-08-2008, 03:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by motorsportnerd View Post
First, Hamilton tried to overtake Raikkonen on the outside into the Bustop. Second, Raikkonen did force Lewis wide and gave him no room.
This could be formulated in a totally different way.
"Hamilton tried to overtake KR in the busstop, and while KR stayed on his racing line, LH had to go elsewhere or abort the overtaking manoeuvre..."

It is nowhere written that "room should be given".....
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  #53  
Old 09-08-2008, 03:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by henk4 View Post
This could be formulated in a totally different way.
"Hamilton tried to overtake KR in the busstop, and while KR stayed on his racing line, LH had to go elsewhere or abort the overtaking manoeuvre..."

It is nowhere written that "room should be given".....
So it is perfectly OK to push drivers off the track as long as they are on the ideal line?
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  #54  
Old 09-08-2008, 03:53 AM
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and to add something that many people probably overlooked, Timo Glock was also given a 25 second penalty for overtaking under yellow. Apparently the rules state that any infringement worth a drive through penalty, but made during the final five laps of a race, will be punished with a 25 second penalty.
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  #55  
Old 09-08-2008, 03:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Wouter Melissen View Post
So it is perfectly OK to push drivers off the track as long as they are on the ideal line?
you make that sound like motor racing is a polite sport, where the "after you, sir" is the ready form of behaviour...
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  #56  
Old 09-08-2008, 04:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by henk4 View Post
you make that sound like motor racing is a polite sport, where the "after you, sir" is the ready form of behaviour...
You make it sound like motorsport is a banger derby.
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  #57  
Old 09-08-2008, 04:44 AM
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IMO, what this incident highlighted(and the race in general), was that the Current Spa had been sanitized beyond belief....Where Lewis cut across yesterday used to be a guardrail barrier and before they changed it no one would've dared tried to go around the outside of the Busstop. Drivers were going off all over and rejoined at all sorts of funny places where they used to be trapped in the gravel or into the tires...now you can seemingly loose nothing and sometimes even have gained something....

I thought the penalty was rather strange as to my mind the move seems tough, but not outside of what I thought to be accepted practice of racing. Unlike Magny-Cours where Lewis did not even attempt to relinquish the spot, he gave it back this time, and was fully behind Kimi going into the the La Source braking zone then he drove pass Kimi into in. And I am not a Hamilton fan at all.....

Too much meddling with some unspecified standard governing the sport right now...
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  #58  
Old 09-08-2008, 05:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by henk4 View Post
This could be formulated in a totally different way.
"Hamilton tried to overtake KR in the busstop, and while KR stayed on his racing line, LH had to go elsewhere or abort the overtaking manoeuvre..."

It is nowhere written that "room should be given".....
Kimi did what most top racing drivers are expected to do. Top racing drivers don't tend to leave room for opponents if they don't have to. Kimi was tough, but fair.
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  #59  
Old 09-08-2008, 05:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by motorsportnerd View Post
So, time for the FIA to make the rule absolutely clear. Lewis should not have lost the win for that move. Fined maybe. Warned maybe that if he cut a chicane for a third time this year he'd miss a race. But, he should not have lost the win.
Or do we think that it was fair that Ferrari released Massa unsafely into Adrian Sutil's path in the pitout in Valencia? No penalty there. And no consistency in the FIA's penalties.
Unfortunately theres the situation where people are basing their opinions on previous penalties handed out, and if the FIA for instance have a history of overlooking incidents that deserve a penalty, when they finally do hand down one its often seen as harsh regardless of the circumstances. Some people are more upset when people do get caught rather than when others get away with it.
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  #60  
Old 09-08-2008, 05:36 AM
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Originally Posted by motorsportnerd View Post
Kimi did what most top racing drivers are expected to do. Top racing drivers don't tend to leave room for opponents if they don't have to. Kimi was tough, but fair.
I agree with that, but I may have been reading too much on the 10-10 forums, as I interpreted your version as: "Saint Louis is coming, make room, and damn those who don't"
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