Are American Motoring Journalists too forgiving?

[crisis]

Third, Clarkson and Top Gear is what most folsk see/read. They're NOT the best and JC has led them to a VERY attacking style of write-up. Again not easy for the sensitive readers. BUT FUNNY

There was a piece in Saturdays newspaper saying how JC (how interesting those initials) loves the Monaro. Is that true.

[taz_rocks_miami]

No matter where you go, people will always tend to favor their home grown products. American journalist probably grew up dreaming of Camaros, Mustangs, Corvettes and so on, and European journalist MGs, Fiats, Ferraris, Jaguars, Matras et Alpines .....

I don't think that we'll be able to find a totaly objective car mag or TV program anywhere. Just my .02

[Luciferous]

There was a piece in Saturdays newspaper saying how JC (how interesting those initials) loves the Monaro. Is that true.

Yeah he's pretty impressed by it, and with the VXR Monaro too (HSV GTO). Good price, good performance, and not many techno nannies to spoil the fun.

[crisis]

Yeah he's pretty impressed by it, and with the VXR Monaro too (HSV GTO). Good price, good performance, and not many techno nannies to spoil the fun.

The Monaro is taken for granted over here. I suppose there a so many around. Of course there are the people who dont like them. I am interested in ho Clarkson rates it in the light of the criticism levelled by some here that its "just" a two door Commodore etc. And the sledges about build quality ect.

[taz_rocks_miami]

There was a piece in Saturdays newspaper saying how JC (how interesting those initials) loves the Monaro. Is that true.

I've seen JC test the Monaro twice. Last season and this one. He had nothing but praises for it both times. This season he said: "Anyone that goes out to buy a 30 thousand Pound car and doesn't buy a Monaro is either an idiot or boring."

[crisis]

I've seen JC test the Monaro twice. Last season and this one. He had nothing but praises for it both times. This season he said: "Anyone that goes out to buy a 30 thousand Pound car and doesn't buy a Monaro is either an idiot or boring."

Maybe some Australian journalists should read his stuff. Those jaded hacks are all about who can make the cleverest derogatory comments or who can remain the most aloof and unimpressed when testing exotic machinery.

[jcp123]

No matter where you go, people will always tend to favor their home grown products. American journalist probably grew up dreaming of Camaros, Mustangs, Corvettes and so on, and European journalist MGs, Fiats, Ferraris, Jaguars, Matras et Alpines .....

I don't think that we'll be able to find a totaly objective car mag or TV program anywhere. Just my .02

I don't know. Americans tend to be the biggest BMW zealots I've ever seen.

[Matra et Alpine]

Well the Monaro won the Top Gear award, so they still love it

I'll try and drop the vid clip later for all you Aussies to clink a few tinnies over

[Matra et Alpine]

It is a FACT that Larry Webster (car and driver) got the C6 Z51 to do 0-60 in 4.1 seconds in the "Almost Supercars" test.

No it's a FACT that using a measuring device a number close to 4.1 was measured. It might have been between 4.05 or 4.149 !
And that a speed of 60 was reached. It might have been 59.95 or 60.049. Actually it might even have been a lot worse as measuring precise speed of an accelerating device isn't that accurate.
So we've already introduced 2 errors in the measurement and notice the variability in those.
I've not even STARTED teaching on the issue of what a second is or a mile or the method of measuring those.
A second is only a 'fact' because it has been agreed that it is som many billion oscillations of a laser. Those oscillations when measuered have an error factor ( just like a=bove ) so in reality the second has variability as soon as you move 1mm away from the reference laser. AND for those wishing to take up a career in quantum physics, the oscillations are not FACT as any attempt to confirm them affects them ( heisenberg uncertainty principle ).
So Sicks at the quantumm laevel you're wrong, at the standards level you're wrong and at the measurement level you're wrong and FINALLY at the publication level you're wrong. And as the say 2 wrongs dont' make a right and neither do 4
I enjoy playing philosphy.
For our purposes the only 2 we shoudl consider are the detailed level of measuemenrt ( there's a .99r window on time and speed ) and more importantly the hundreds of variables involved in temperature and setup.
So the only FACT is that a number was agreed on the day by a bunhc of guys and it got published.
Thems' the reasons I dont' like to base my life approach on published numbers, cos they can be as much about opinion as raw opinion

People driving economy cars etc. obveously dont care about skidpad #s.
When driving around a track skidpad shows how well the car will grip on a flat surface. Like I said it gives you a general idea. (BTW i dont encounter potholes every day, so i dont really care...)

wrong you do encounter them or you're living in the only country that spends its whole GDP on road maintenance.
What you MEAN is you dont' NOTICE them.
That'll be soft suspension setup then
Roads arent' flat and like said already the skid pan g doesn't give any inclination of what happens next. I sure as hell want to know if it behaves like a 1960s 911 or an FF1600 !!
What a skidpan shows is how well a car keeps the rubber flat on the road under stable cornering forces and how much rubber it has. End of story. It tells you nothing about the suspension in real life. If you believe otherwise tTHIS time explain the FACTS (!) as you understand them as to how it tells you anything and we'll listen intently.

It just sounded like thats what you were going for.

Now I've done my best to keep it even-keel Slicks but you have made NO ATTEMPT to change your acerbic attitude have you. Bad you

Are you suggesting that the test cars are "better setup" that the street cars. Like the manufactureer tweaks the car and then sends it to the journalisits?

and you think that ISN'T the case.
hey, I've $20M in a bank in Nigeria all I need you to do is send me $5000 and you can have 10% of it.
Seriouly Slicks you dont' know much about car tests.
One of the reasons Top Gear is hated is because they DO do there own thing. No manufacturer allowed to adjust - though on occasion if they think somethign is badly broke they take it back and point it out. The Deronda designer refused to let TG have one of their prototypes because he wanted to be abel to tweak it as they complained as they were still developnig it. They said no and so he said NO - he's got ballz
You forget the commercial nature of cars and car magazines if you think otherwise.

The major "sell" on the Z51 isnt a 0.3 second better 0-60 time... Its a race car like setup thats comfortable to drive on the street, and then smash high end cars on the track.

Look SLicks you and I neraly came to blows about your inability to see one point and try to avoid it by stating another. Let me give you the quote from C&D
The top-dog Z06's front anti-roll bar and rear springs are stiffer than the Z51's to further reduce roll and to better resist acceleration squat
So get past your chip and your bias ( sorry to bring it up again but you are ReALLY annoying with your attitude about information ) and see that it IS abotu squat AND roll. So my comment IS RIGHT. and so is yours. BUT WHY you try to make one comment seem wrong by ignoring it and only pointing out the other pisec of information I dont' knwo and I'm ending this one now or it'll get personal as before.
Saddened

[PininfarinaPIMP]

I dont think so, look at the many recalls and problems with american vehicles. American vehicles are being designed to drive more by computer and give the driver less control...


"I dont drive fast, I fly low..."
"Guns dont kill people, dangerous minorities do..."

[:Exige:]

Yeah he's pretty impressed by it, and with the VXR Monaro too (HSV GTO). Good price, good performance, and not many techno nannies to spoil the fun.

Ive always loved HSV's since I went to the Birmingham NEC Sportscar Show 2001 so I was pretty chuffed when they decided to do a HSV Vauxhall. Theyre gonna make a 400bhp version of the Monaro arent they? Should be a laugh

[Slicks]

Yes, but there are other cars out there which just so happen to reach 60mph at the redline in 2nd. Oh how conveniant...

Yes true, but i can be a coincidence...

So American motoring journalists in general only ever drive supercars?

No where in this thread is the type of car reviewed restricted to supercars and track-day cars.

What about cars like the Impreza WRX, or the MINI Cooper?

They are everyday cars. Are you telling me that no American magazine has tested teir perfomance figures?

There not going to just give you the figures for the performance cars, their going to show them for all cars.

No, but what if the Civic is better to drive along a typical road - the type you might end up on during your "Sunday Driver" times. It isn't bumping and weaving across the road surface, or destroying your kidneys.

But how would you put that into figures?

You can't, hence the emphasis on opinion in European journalism.

Its not like europeans are the only writers...
We write too, and on things just like that. But when it comes to performance, figures are not a bad thing.

[Slicks]

Slicks, either shut up or use quotes better, it's getting annoying siphoning through all the crap in your responses, so people don't take on board what your trying to say.

Give me an example here...

[Coventrysucks]

But when it comes to performance, figures are not a bad thing.

They are pretty much useless as anything more than a rough guide as far a I am concerned.

Like you'd ever notice that extra .1 of a second/ g/ whatever anyway

[Slicks]

No it's a FACT that using a measuring device a number close to 4.1 was measured. It might have been between 4.05 or 4.149 !
And that a speed of 60 was reached. It might have been 59.95 or 60.049. Actually it might even have been a lot worse as measuring precise speed of an accelerating device isn't that accurate.

Ok, yes the measuing device used recorded 0-60 in 4.1 seconds. And car and driver (or the measuring device) rounded.

So we've already introduced 2 errors in the measurement and notice the variability in those.
I've not even STARTED teaching on the issue of what a second is or a mile or the method of measuring those.
A second is only a 'fact' because it has been agreed that it is som many billion oscillations of a laser. Those oscillations when measuered have an error factor ( just like a=bove ) so in reality the second has variability as soon as you move 1mm away from the reference laser. AND for those wishing to take up a career in quantum physics, the oscillations are not FACT as any attempt to confirm them affects them ( heisenberg uncertainty principle ).
So Sicks at the quantumm laevel you're wrong, at the standards level you're wrong and at the measurement level you're wrong and FINALLY at the publication level you're wrong. And as the say 2 wrongs dont' make a right and neither do 4

We all know there are MANY different things that can change times. No one expects the vette to do 0-60 in 4.1 every time. It just shows that its possible to do.

I enjoy playing philosphy.

I can tell :P

For our purposes the only 2 we shoudl consider are the detailed level of measuemenrt ( there's a .99r window on time and speed ) and more importantly the hundreds of variables involved in temperature and setup.
So the only FACT is that a number was agreed on the day by a bunhc of guys and it got published.
Thems' the reasons I dont' like to base my life approach on published numbers, cos they can be as much about opinion as raw opinion

I see where you getting. And they CAN be as much about opinion as raw opinion, but we have more than one source to look at. And when more than one different sources getting nearly identical times its safe to say that their less of an opinion.

wrong you do encounter them or you're living in the only country that spends its whole GDP on road maintenance.
What you MEAN is you dont' NOTICE them.
That'll be soft suspension setup then

No, i litterally DO NOT encounter ANY potwholes DAILY (key word there). Typically i just drive from home to school (and back) every other day. On the road to and from school there are NO potholes. There are roads with potholes in them around here, but there are very few. And almost all of the highways around me are pothole-less. And I most certainly do notice them because i dodge them :P

Roads arent' flat and like said already the skid pan g doesn't give any inclination of what happens next. I sure as hell want to know if it behaves like a 1960s 911 or an FF1600 !!
What a skidpan shows is how well a car keeps the rubber flat on the road under stable cornering forces and how much rubber it has. End of story. It tells you nothing about the suspension in real life. If you believe otherwise tTHIS time explain the FACTS (!) as you understand them as to how it tells you anything and we'll listen intently.

Yes roads are not flat, but the test needs its control factor, and thats it. Just like in EPA gas milage ratings, its under normal driving conditions, ofcourse your not going to get the same MPG uphill as on a flat road. Just as your not going to grip as well around certain turns compared to a completely flat surface. And yes i know its all about the tires you have, but suspension differences do show too. What one reason SUVs dont pull high Gs on the skid pad? Soft, forgiving susension is one reason.

Now I've done my best to keep it even-keel Slicks but you have made NO ATTEMPT to change your acerbic attitude have you. Bad you

Sorry, i dont really know what your talking about. Please explain.

and you think that ISN'T the case.
hey, I've $20M in a bank in Nigeria all I need you to do is send me $5000 and you can have 10% of it.
Seriouly Slicks you dont' know much about car tests.
One of the reasons Top Gear is hated is because they DO do there own thing. No manufacturer allowed to adjust - though on occasion if they think somethign is badly broke they take it back and point it out. The Deronda designer refused to let TG have one of their prototypes because he wanted to be abel to tweak it as they complained as they were still developnig it. They said no and so he said NO - he's got ballz
You forget the commercial nature of cars and car magazines if you think otherwise.

Alot of the cars they test are friends cars, or just people they know. Not all are sent directly from the factory. It makes sence what your saying, but i doubt companies are doing that...
Are you saying that the magazine journalists are aware of the "adjustments" made to the factory cars? Id be surprised if they allowed that...
And if they didnt know they would most likley find out, they dont just test one car and be done with it. They'll test numerous different cars (like two different 05 corvettes for example). If one for some reason starts performing significantly better, then they'd probably figure that something is fishy...

Look SLicks you and I neraly came to blows about your inability to see one point and try to avoid it by stating another. Let me give you the quote from C&D
The top-dog Z06's front anti-roll bar and rear springs are stiffer than the Z51's to further reduce roll and to better resist acceleration squat
So get past your chip and your bias ( sorry to bring it up again but you are ReALLY annoying with your attitude about information ) and see that it IS abotu squat AND roll. So my comment IS RIGHT. and so is yours. BUT WHY you try to make one comment seem wrong by ignoring it and only pointing out the other pisec of information I dont' knwo and I'm ending this one now or it'll get personal as before.
Saddened

Sorry, it sounded like you were saying the main point of it was for better acceleration, which was the farthest from the truth.