Surely the point is that GM claim the standard 'Vette is better than the 997, so it is a fair comparison to test the two versions directly.Originally Posted by sandwich
I don't bash every American car
Surely the point is that GM claim the standard 'Vette is better than the 997, so it is a fair comparison to test the two versions directly.Originally Posted by sandwich
I don't bash every American car
Thanks for all the fish
but I find it odd that there is absolutely no hard data included in these comparisons. It's all completely subjective, what's up with that?
The MB and Viper comparo is really contrived too, they admit that the Viper would kill the MB on a track yet rip it because of it's lack of sophistication. Obviously a $100,000+ MB GT is going to be much more refined than a Viper, what's the point? They tell you nothing in that comparo that anyone with a brain wouldn't have known before even picking it up. Also they are not from the same parent company, well maybe they are now. But I doubt if there is ONE engineer who worked on both of those cars. Also how is it that the MB is faster in the "real world"? Is a race track not the real world? If you mean on the street, then it would most likely be a drag race, so lets see some quarter mile stats. If you mean a back road, then the Viper wins again if in fact it is faster on a track. The only reason the MB is faster on your brit roads is because it has artificial devices like traction control and active suspension. I mean, I don't even like the Viper, but they don't give it any credit. It's strengths aren't in the refinement, or feel of it's chassis. It's in the brutal power of it's engine and raw performance. Which they don't even mention.
Over all I guess it's not that bad an article but I just think some hard numbers would serve the reader better than merely listening to one editors opinions.
Most wanted cars:
Ford GT, Aston Martin DB9, Nissan Skyline R-34 V-Spec II, 2004 SVT Cobra Mustang, VW Golf R32, TVR Cerbera 4.5, Ford Focus RS, Aston Martin Vanquish S
Still waiting.....Shelby Cobra, Shelby GR1, 2006 Ford Lightning, Next generation SVT Mustang Cobra 2006? Mazda Speed RX8
Look who its coming from. They're comparing American cars, obveously they dont need any stats for that, all they do is point to the american car and say "bad".Originally Posted by more-boost1555
Could be a valid point.Originally Posted by Slicks
Because hard data means nothing.Originally Posted by more-boost1555
There are so few times when you actually do a standing 0-60, or Vmax, or 1/4mile, or slalom test when driving any of these cars, why waste copy space telling people who don't care about it?
Real driving enthusiasts who drive these cars want to know how they behave when hooning across country along deserted A- and B- roads on a Sunday morning, because that is what they will be doing with their cars.
You can't measure tramlining across rutted, crumbling tarmac into a damp off-camber corner, or how well the suspension copes with pot-holes in the midst of a sweeping bend. Or how much information you get about the front tyres scrubbing wide, and if lifting off will tighten the line or induce a bit of oversteer.
These are the things that matter, and that people want to know about, not the exact time it can achive doing 0-60 at 500ft above sealevel, in 10% humidity, 15 degrees C on a specific piece of tarmac with one particular person changing gears. Times and figures are affected by so many variables that they aren't really useful to anyone driving on the roads.
No, no, no. You just don't get it.Originally Posted by more-boost1555
Who the f*ck apart from immature kids hold illeagal drag races?
And how many of them are in a position to actually buy anything other that a crappy-shopper for £3,000?
The real world means just that - driving in the real world.
Driving to work, driving across country to visit relatives, driving to the shops to get milk, getting stuck in traffic jams and slogging it round the M25 on a wet monday morning in January, driving across Europe in two days for the hell of it.
Originally Posted by more-boost1555
You say the Viper would be faster on roads, because it is faster on track?
Here's why it isn't - because it is set up for the track.
The American engineers care so much about skidpan figures and getting their precious figures, and therefore good reviews from the American media, that it is set up to do well in clinical conditions on smooth, high quality tarmac, inevitably in the dry.
Real roads that people drive on everyday aren't like that, they don't benefit from huge tyres and super-stiff suspension, they need compliance and feel. They need to be able to cope with conditions never found on a track. The Viper's set up means it cannot deliver its power on the roads, and its raw performance is a hinderance to making progress.
The electronics of the Benz allow it to perform with ease, so while you are pussy-footing around in the Viper trying not to deposit yourself and the car in a field, you simply depress the throttle of the Benz and watch the Viper become a small dot in the mirror.
The comparison was between two 2-seat convertible cars offering similar engine outputs, with similar quoted performance figures and (in the UK) similar prices.
What is wrong with that?
You don't know how motoring journalists work then.Originally Posted by more-boost1555
In the UK at least, depending on how long they have the car, they usually have more than one person driving it, and then they compare notes etc, and one person writes the article.
Even if they are only driving a car for an afternoon at a launch event, there is almost always a photographer in tow who'll usually drive it for a bit, and lend their expert opinion.
At Autocar they simply hang all the keys of cars they have on test up in the office, and whoever gets there first gets to choose the car and go home in it.
It sounds much better when written by one author in the first person than becoming: Person X thought this, Person Y thought that, Person Z thought the other.
Thanks for all the fish
I know many people here who care about 0-60 and 1/4 miles times when buying performance cars. Alot of people dragrace with them for fun, and also autocross. Hell I probably wouldnt buy a performance car that couldnt do 0-60 in under 6 seconds, or run the 1/4 mile in under 15 seconds.Originally Posted by Coventrysucks
From what you say its seems that these "real driving enthusiasts" are the ones on the race track, not the "immature kids street racing."Real driving enthusiasts who drive these cars want to know how they behave when hooning across country along deserted A- and B- roads on a Sunday morning, because that is what they will be doing with their cars.
Ever pull up next to someone at a stoplight?Who the f*ck apart from immature kids hold illeagal drag races?
And how many of them are in a position to actually buy anything other that a crappy-shopper for £3,000?
We care about skidpad figures because grip is everything. The more the grip, the faster the car can take the turn(on a track). I dont think many people will be taking out their Vipers in the rain, or trying to race(or go fast) on shitty roads. The Viper is a track car yes, you talk about illegal street racing like its bad, then you go off talking about speeding around on shitty roads. Pick a side! How about take it on the track where it belongs and be done with it!You say the Viper would be faster on roads, because it is faster on track?
Here's why it isn't - because it is set up for the track.
The American engineers care so much about skidpan figures and getting their precious figures, and therefore good reviews from the American media, that it is set up to do well in clinical conditions on smooth, high quality tarmac, inevitably in the dry.
Here the roads generally are like that, and remember the Viper is made here.Real roads that people drive on everyday aren't like that, they don't benefit from huge tyres and super-stiff suspension, they need compliance and feel. They need to be able to cope with conditions never found on a track. The Viper's set up means it cannot deliver its power on the roads, and its raw performance is a hinderance to making progress.
Yeah, "under 6 seconds" is fine, but how many people really care about whether their car can do 0-60 in 4.1 or 4.0 seconds? How many try?Originally Posted by Slicks
There is a distinct difference between racing, which usually involves stupid people trying to go faster than each other, with neither wanting to back down, and making progress down a deserted B-road, taking the care and consideration that most well educated performance drivers should, e.g being able to stop in the distance you can see to be clear, expect the unexpected, driving at a speed appropriate to the prevalent conditions etc.Originally Posted by Slicks
Yes, fun leaving people standing with a TDI Passat, but I don't know anyone who has seriously "raced" anyone from the lights to anything over 30-40mph.Originally Posted by Slicks
And I know no-one who races away from every single set of traffic lights, because most of the people I know are sensible, considerate drivers.
No! That is what you have been lead to believe by the media.Originally Posted by Slicks
More grip means more grip, not faster.
In F1 they introduced grooved slick tyres, which reduced grip, and the cars went just as fast as before, so obviously the ammount of grip they have makes little or no difference to cornering speed.
What so everyone who buys a performance car never drives it on the road?Originally Posted by Slicks
If you are spending money on a Viper that is only effective on track, why not spend less money on something like a Radical which would blow the socks-off a Viper?
Illegal street racing is totally stupid, but is different to a responsible driver going out and enjoying a fast drive.
Last edited by Coventrysucks; 01-12-2005 at 05:04 PM.
Thanks for all the fish
This was always going to happen.
American cars go up against their "Respective" (Sometimes they had no european competitor, Say the Viper and Merc) european or japanese adversary, in a european context, and come off second best.
I've not seen an american comparison, on home soil they maay have a good chance. But the fact remains these cars, despite being excellent value for money, lag behind in certain areas, and how the whole package fits together.
Theres no reason why any of the cars mentioned in the test could not be considered amazingly good purchases, but some cars are just seen as being on another plane to their competitiors.
*Prepares fire Extinguiser*
<cough> www.charginmahlazer.tumblr.com </cough>
Two more things:
To correct, I would wager most car enthusiasts care about who's car is fast to 60 by a second or two...lame? Yeah, but it's like saying it's got a hemi, it's just cool. So what if car is is .08 seconds faster to sixty than car B? Owner of car A can brag about it...and therefore it matters...
Also, I would much rather hear person x liked this, person y liked this, person z hated this, then person x liked this and this, but didn't like this. Multiple opinions give the reader the ability to decide what they feel. I will probably never sit in a Diablo VT, but because i've read multiple reviews on it, I can formulate my own opinion. Does it really matter what I think? Not to you, maybe, but to me it does...
...does that make sense? I lost my train of thought....i guess i just like hearing multiple opinions rather than one person's impressions...whether influenced by others or not.
And Iraaaaaaaaaaaan
Iran's so far awaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay...
ROR
Gathering many opinions on the one subject is like shopping around for the best buy. Your not sure how the product works, or even if it will work, but if you go around and consult people who do know something, you can make an informed decision, rather than going in blidnly.
I think thats what you were trying to get across
Last edited by IBrake4Rainbows; 01-12-2005 at 04:33 PM.
<cough> www.charginmahlazer.tumblr.com </cough>
For the large majority of road tests you see (in the UK) at least two people will have usually driven that car, and they will have compared notes, but the article is written by one of those people.Originally Posted by sandwich
Usually they are writing to a specific number of words, and if that space is limited, would you rather a few points were condensed, but more about the car got into the article:
"The transmission is good, although occasionally can be a bit awkward across the gate"
Or, whomever's opinion is clearly attributed to them, but less about the car gets into the article:
"I thought the transmission is good, but A. Nother thought that it was occasionally awkward across the gate" (20% of the words more or less wasted in one short sentance - expand that over a 300 word article and that is 60 words wasted - a short paragraph, which could be used to say something slightly more interesting).
Thanks for all the fish
Neither, and both. I got suckered into "car and driver," and while I dislike the american form of Auto magazines (everything eurpean rocks, everything american rocks a little more...uh....am I missing something here?), they have a good way of doing articles. They have a main author that sums up the car best they can, in-depth. Then, they give three other people a one-paragraph blurb about whatever they like. It's labeled "counterpoint", but more often than not they agree with the original author. Often times, however, they will point out things that get left out of the article...like if one doesn't like the styling, or the instrument panel, or if this does this or whatever...it provides a nice summary of several different opinions, but takes up no space and no fluff. I read evo occasionally, and I also like the way they do things (great mag, IMO), but I do like being able to see at least 3 distinct POV's.
It's kind of like going to a consumer review site. I would rather see 200 positive reviews that are summaries than one 5 page review, though I certainly would give more weight to the heavier article...
why are we arguing this again?
And Iraaaaaaaaaaaan
Iran's so far awaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay...
ROR
I point you in the direction of the rt. hon. more-boost1555Originally Posted by sandwich
Just one of the vast majority of people suckered into believing that a 0.1 difference in 0-60 times isOriginally Posted by more-boost1555
a) Repeatable under any circumstances. Therefore if a Porsche is 0.1s slower than a Lotus Exige, the Exige is always faster. Even in snow, and the Porsche is a Carrera 4, and the Exige is still on its track-special, near-slick tyres.
b) Noticable.
And that a higher g-rating on a skidpan automatically makes the whole car better, even if the interior is made from cardboard, the car has such a tiny fuel tank that you can only drive 10 miles between fuel stops and the seats are so uncomfortable that any journey longer than 30mins requires corrective surgery.
Thanks for all the fish
A correction on that, Slicks.Originally Posted by Slicks
A turn, not all turns and certainly NOT a sequence of turns.
The skid pan measures one variable while keeping everything constant. The "real world" isn't like that. Not even on tracks !!!
Just a minor reminder that HANDLING is not g figures
"A woman without curves is like a road without bends, you might get to your destination quicker but the ride is boring as hell'
ok im going to go out on a limb and still say that the viper would wipe th floor clean with the MB, just my arrogant thininking that american racing cars, especially vipers are god damn awsum, i watch them on tv all da time and im amazed at how well they do smackin the crap out of porsche etc...most of the time
House said the perfect woman was a man...now im all confused!!
What is a mile long and hasn't had sex?
- The line for the PS3
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