FWD vs. RWD. vs. AWD

[gts4diehard]

Hi, regarding the nissan attessa system from someone who has driven one for the last 5 years.

most fwds understeer with there being few exceptions
50/50 awd's also understeer - take subaru wrxs, thats why when they are cornering fast they are always sliding, i have seen wrxs and gtrs on skidpans( with water & diesel mix on the concrete) and the wrxs understeer like fwds unless the driver can get the rear to break loose.
RWDs are good but they are not as fast out of a corner, there is no way it can beat an awd which is spreading the grip amongst 4 wheels rather than 2. F1/Champ cars make the RWD platform work because their rear tyres are much wider than their front, something that is not really feasible on road cars. The high HP lambos are AWD, the top porsches are too, and if you think the ferraris are faster check out some of the best motoring videos showing ferraris being beaten by $60k mitsubishi evos and wrx sti's. P.S. Ferrari by the way started out as a rally driver, so the pedigree of the company developed by driving sideways on dirt roads - sounds similar doesnt it? - subaru and mitsi's are building a rep the same way, check out the story of enzo ferrari it is really good.
a system that can vary the torque front / rear is much better unless you are a colin mcrae / tommi makinen and take your corners sideways!

the nissan awd system is similar to other fast awd e.g. 959
it is designed to go into a corner as a RWD and pull you out as an awd with upto 50/50 torque split, that way you can get a little oversteer and no understeer into the corner and when you hit the apex under acceleration you are being pulled out of the corner.
It is a very fast way of going around a corner, going into a corner - leaving the front tyres with the job of steering you into the apex ( also coping with the weight transfer of braking) and on exit after apex when the car is basically going straight( with little steering loads on front tyres) putting power to both front and rears.

The benefits of AWD are definitely real and if you arent convinced after driving in one then you are not going fast enough!

The only thing going against awds is the weight penalty, but once you reach a high enough horespower level this isn't a factor, traction and grip are what matters. You can only go so wide with rear tyres for road cars and the only other option for grip is sharing the duties with the front tyres as well.

If you havent driven a variable torque awd system then you really should try one! you wont be dissappointed!

[henk4]

Welcome to UCP, interesting and well thought out points. I think you are one of the few who actually have got this experience, that many out here can only dream of. Interestingly you managed to avoid the word "Skyline" in the whole of your post.

[KnifeEdge_2K1]

Hi, regarding the nissan attessa system from someone who has driven one for the last 5 years.

most fwds understeer with there being few exceptions
50/50 awd's also understeer - take subaru wrxs, thats why when they are cornering fast they are always sliding, i have seen wrxs and gtrs on skidpans( with water & diesel mix on the concrete) and the wrxs understeer like fwds unless the driver can get the rear to break loose.
RWDs are good but they are not as fast out of a corner, there is no way it can beat an awd which is spreading the grip amongst 4 wheels rather than 2. F1/Champ cars make the RWD platform work because their rear tyres are much wider than their front, something that is not really feasible on road cars. The high HP lambos are AWD, the top porsches are too, and if you think the ferraris are faster check out some of the best motoring videos showing ferraris being beaten by $60k mitsubishi evos and wrx sti's. P.S. Ferrari by the way started out as a rally driver, so the pedigree of the company developed by driving sideways on dirt roads - sounds similar doesnt it? - subaru and mitsi's are building a rep the same way, check out the story of enzo ferrari it is really good.
a system that can vary the torque front / rear is much better unless you are a colin mcrae / tommi makinen and take your corners sideways!

the nissan awd system is similar to other fast awd e.g. 959
it is designed to go into a corner as a RWD and pull you out as an awd with upto 50/50 torque split, that way you can get a little oversteer and no understeer into the corner and when you hit the apex under acceleration you are being pulled out of the corner.
It is a very fast way of going around a corner, going into a corner - leaving the front tyres with the job of steering you into the apex ( also coping with the weight transfer of braking) and on exit after apex when the car is basically going straight( with little steering loads on front tyres) putting power to both front and rears.

The benefits of AWD are definitely real and if you arent convinced after driving in one then you are not going fast enough!

The only thing going against awds is the weight penalty, but once you reach a high enough horespower level this isn't a factor, traction and grip are what matters. You can only go so wide with rear tyres for road cars and the only other option for grip is sharing the duties with the front tyres as well.

If you havent driven a variable torque awd system then you really should try one! you wont be dissappointed!

dude, all awd systems vary torque, 50:50 awd cars theoretically wont understeer, and nissan's awd is way too complicated for it's own good, again as i brought up b4, different drivetrain would favor different suspension setups, unless you had active suspension and engine mapping a regular awd with torque sensing or self locking diffs are just as good if not better due to the reliability, low running costs, and ease of maintenance

[Galant]

AWD are the best because they can go off road and they get you moving quicker

[matheus]

supra
nsx
skyline
3000gt

[Rockefella]

supra
nsx
skyline
3000gt

FFS, stop spamming. The supra is a good car, sure.. but stop ranting and fanboy-talking it.

[KnifeEdge_2K1]

supra
nsx
skyline
3000gt

with the exception of the nsx all of those are old antiques and crap

the only reason i say the nsx isnt crap is cuz of it's rediculously low weight and mid engined design, even now it's showing it's age, the type R MK2 lapped tsukuba a second slower then the evo VIII RS which is shameful considering the type R's has better power to weight and optimal front rear weight distribution

[Eclipx]

The FWD will win.


Here are the facts. Read very carefully,

http://www.toymods.org.au/fwd_rwd_awd.html

Now here it says:

Ease of set-up
Probably tending to be more like the FWD in terms of difficulty, but with more like RWD rates, etc.

Effect of total weight
Quite insensitive. Lighter is always better.

Cost
Due to having components of FWD and RWD, they naturally tend to cost the most to make.


Summary - low power

Depending a lot on what you want the car for.

Public
FWD wins every time.

[Rockefella]

The FWD will win.


Here are the facts. Read very carefully,

http://www.toymods.org.au/fwd_rwd_awd.html

Now here it says:

Ease of set-up
Probably tending to be more like the FWD in terms of difficulty, but with more like RWD rates, etc.

Effect of total weight
Quite insensitive. Lighter is always better.

Cost
Due to having components of FWD and RWD, they naturally tend to cost the most to make.


Summary - low power

Depending a lot on what you want the car for.

Public
FWD wins every time.

Words of advice, prepare to get owned.

[henk4]

Words of advice, prepare to get owned.

some points are valid, like costs (ever checked the prices for a BMW 1-series?) and the public. Quote from a German magazine that had the car for a longer test: During the last 14 days we had two times when we felt the advantage of having RWD. Every day though we were confronted with the lack of space on the rear seats. The public is not that stupid.

Edit: And btw, welcome to UCP

[Matra et Alpine]

some of the "educated guesses" aren't'.

Claiming FWD is better than RWD because of lower transmission loss for one - WRONG !! FWD has to have drive go through drive shafts with much more complex CV joints to cope with steering angles.

Claiming sub 100hp FWD is better ignores completely the dynamics of starting a car moving and using the power best out of corners. WEIGHT transfer hurts FWD all the time !!

Huge generalisation on stability too.

Interesting but factually incorrect in too many places for me to hold much sway.
What's this guys experience ? At l;east he's honest saying he's little experience on FWD and I'm not sure about his AWD experience either as on some rally events RWD beats AWD

and did I miss something or does he really NEVER talk about power to weight ??

Fits in the "Interesting read" category.

[derekthetree]

The FWD will win.


Here are the facts. Read very carefully,

http://www.toymods.org.au/fwd_rwd_awd.html

Now here it says:

Ease of set-up
Probably tending to be more like the FWD in terms of difficulty, but with more like RWD rates, etc.

Effect of total weight
Quite insensitive. Lighter is always better.

Cost
Due to having components of FWD and RWD, they naturally tend to cost the most to make.


Summary - low power

Depending a lot on what you want the car for.

Public
FWD wins every time.

some of these points are valid but you can blow a big hole in this entire argument with two words...

porsche 911

is a Front-Engine FWD car just being driven around in reverse (but with rear steer

[Eclipx]

some of these points are valid but you can blow a big hole in this entire argument with two words...

porsche 911

is a Front-Engine FWD car just being driven around in reverse (but with rear steer

? What. the 911 does not have FWD. Right? or am i really stupid.

the case is, That I own a Mitsubishi Eclispe gsi. I'm going to swap the engine with a turboed one. Now I will install an LSD L? Slip diff.... To keep the wheels from spinning when i pull up hard. Now as for my weight, I will take out my backseats, to remove some weight from the rear wheels. so when I pull up it will not pull backwards and lose grip (Only like 4% better)

I will replace the suspension, Front suspension will be softened, and the rear suspension will be set to HARD. Also to help me prevent the front wheel to lift up...

[KnifeEdge_2K1]

some of the "educated guesses" aren't'.

Claiming FWD is better than RWD because of lower transmission loss for one - WRONG !! FWD has to have drive go through drive shafts with much more complex CV joints to cope with steering angles.

Claiming sub 100hp FWD is better ignores completely the dynamics of starting a car moving and using the power best out of corners. WEIGHT transfer hurts FWD all the time !!

Huge generalisation on stability too.

Interesting but factually incorrect in too many places for me to hold much sway.
What's this guys experience ? At l;east he's honest saying he's little experience on FWD and I'm not sure about his AWD experience either as on some rally events RWD beats AWD

and did I miss something or does he really NEVER talk about power to weight ??

Fits in the "Interesting read" category.

well there are some times where fwd cars will outdo rwd cars, in rallying isnt fwd more stable then rwds? weight transfer doesnt occur in rallying isnt as big in rallying and the extra front end weight helps turn in doesnt it?

oh yeah as for the cv joints, most rwd cars and awd cars use them now too dont they?

[KnifeEdge_2K1]

? What. the 911 does not have FWD. Right? or am i really stupid.

the case is, That I own a Mitsubishi Eclispe gsi. I'm going to swap the engine with a turboed one. Now I will install an LSD L? Slip diff.... To keep the wheels from spinning when i pull up hard. Now as for my weight, I will take out my backseats, to remove some weight from the rear wheels. so when I pull up it will not pull backwards and lose grip (Only like 4% better)

I will replace the suspension, Front suspension will be softened, and the rear suspension will be set to HARD. Also to help me prevent the front wheel to lift up...

dude lsds dont give u grip when u pull hard, only in the corners will it help
an open diff and lsd will act the same in a strait line, except the open diff will prolly be better cuz it will have less loss in heat (unless the pavement is really soaked or uneven)

good call on taking out the backseats, they're pretty useless newayz and will reduce ur weight by quite a bit, only thing i can see u have problems with is shifting the cog up too much, might induce more understeer but it shouldnt be that big of a problem i dont think sine you're changing the suspension, just stiffen up the back and ull get more neutral