Would/Could Group B return?

[sandwich]

Simple question complicated answer:

Would or Could group B rallying be brought back? Why or why not?

[Matra et Alpine]

Simple question complicated answer:

Would or Could group B rallying be brought back? Why or why not?

Too dangerous.
Too expensive.
Poor platform for advertising they would only be on camera for ever shorter time

Seriously, rallying is in a difficult phase already as the cars increase in speed again.

Some of the best stages in the world can no longer be run under FIA rules.
They are considered too far from service base, too dangerous, too tiring or - even worse - not good viewing !!

Cars with unlimited power and weight - the ultimate GroupB - would be unacceptable.

It's a shame, but like driving a D-type with a cork helmet, it isn't going to be repeated again

[Homem de Gelo]

Nah, what we have today is fast and tchnologically evolved enough. It owes nothing to Group B, IMO.

[RenesisEvo]

Excuse me, but Group B never ran unlimited weight.. most of the cars were given a limit according to their capacity (with a turbo equivalence rule of 1.4). Thus most of the main runners (Audi, Peugeot, LAncia) ran at 960kg.. but that's still lighter than the 1230kg of modern WRC.

To whoever said it's too dangerous: well, back then crowd control was non-existent ( i have a photo that'll make u squeam); tyre and suspension technology had not evolved sufficiently to cope withe the power outputs then. I suspect nowadays rally cars will be capable of handling larger power outputs - who can forget the monster Pikes Peak Escudo/Vitara of 900+bhp..or even that 750bhp Saab.

However, the media coverage would be an issue... the cars were spectaclulary impressive and sounded amazing, but shorter camera coverage is the problem.

[DasModell]

No ..

[RenesisEvo]

sorry...?

[Matra et Alpine]

Excuse me, but Group B never ran unlimited weight..

IIRC the first year of Group B the only weight requiremnet came from the country of manufacture as they had to build 200 cars which were road-legal. So in the UK, the cars had to pass Vehicle Inspectorate requirements, including crash tests. I thought it was the shock of what Renault, Ford and Peugeot were producing that added the limits for later years. Unfortunately, don't have the regs any more

most of the cars were given a limit according to their capacity (with a turbo equivalence rule of 1.4). Thus most of the main runners (Audi, Peugeot, LAncia) ran at 960kg.. but that's still lighter than the 1230kg of modern WRC.

In first year the Audi's were running 1100kg. They were late in realising that everyone else was building spaceframe/monocoque chassis and making homologation specials. Audi were just upping the power of their Coupe platform. The later S and S2 changed that.

To whoever said it's too dangerous: well, back then crowd control was non-existent ( i have a photo that'll make u squeam);

I meant dabgerous from a driver's perspective.
It was unfortunate it took the death of Toivonen for everyone to waken up to the real risks. That is that there is NO run-off, NO absorbing barrier, NO lea-way and too much effort for the drivers to cope with.
The Italians and Greek spectators ( that's probably the photos or videos you've seen ) have and always will be a problem - it comes with the passion. Even this year the Monte lost a stage to inconsiderate spectators.
Having followed rallying and competed in the UK, that's not a problem everywhere.

tyre and suspension technology had not evolved sufficiently to cope withe the power outputs then.

They made up for quality with quantity on the rubber front for tarmac events. Not being restricted to wheel and body dimensions there was some extreme rubber fitted
The suspension on an RS200 is about as advanced as it can get.
Damper technology HAS evolved, but even back then you could spend the money and have multi-valved, remote dampers.
In the 1986 season Henri Toivonen lapped the Estoril circuit in a Lancia Delta S4 during the Portuguese rally. His fastest lap would have qualified him in the sixth position of the F1 Grand Prix that same season.
No rally car in todays rules would come anywhere near that of an F1 - this test was done and confirmed by Top Gear a couple of years back

I suspect nowadays rally cars will be capable of handling larger power outputs

Well not nowadays in mainstream rallying as specials aren't run.
Within the confines of the regs, we'll never see the power and performance of Group B again

- who can forget the monster Pikes Peak Escudo/Vitara of 900+bhp..or even that 750bhp Saab.

Or the 406T16, but these are all specials built for one purpose - to do Pikes Peak in the open class. These have very little relevance to rallying as it is run around the world.
Anyone who'd like to get close to experiencing that should view the Vatanen Pikes Peak movie. It's great action, cinematography , SOUND and driving
You can usually find it easily on-line, but d/l rate varies and it's big - seee it at http://www.205gti.co.uk/multimedia/gal-videos.asp

[henk4]

Given the fact that very few manufacturers (currently 5) are financially capable of fielding only two cars (already one down compared to last season) in WRC guise I think it's very unlikely that we see unlimited beasts like the S4 ever again. Nevertheless I always regret that the 288GTO was never allowed to show whether it had potential or not.

Apart from this I fully agree with the reasonings brought forward by Matra.

[Matra et Alpine]

Given the fact that very few manufacturers (currently 5) are financially capable of fielding only two cars

But just wait till the F1 machine has crumbled in Bernie's hands and WRCbecomes THE premiere world motorsport
( After MotoGP of course !! )

[sandwich]

you guys bring up some good points, but i was just thinking...rally is a great sport to watch, i think. Attending an event may not be the greatest thing ever, i can definately understand that, but the event could be televised with reasonable success, I would think...maybe not.

i'm just hoping the WRC comes to the US sometime soon...rally isn't big here...yet

[Matra et Alpine]

you guys bring up some good points, but i was just thinking...rally is a great sport to watch, i think. Attending an event may not be the greatest thing ever, i can definately understand that, but the event could be televised with reasonable success, I would think...maybe not.

i'm just hoping the WRC comes to the US sometime soon...rally isn't big here...yet

It's a little easier to televise parts of a stage and the current WRC format uses many stages twice.
unfortunately, this is taming down rallying and gone are the days of the real challanges.
14 miles through Kielder Forest was one of the best stages in world rallying.
A BBC reporter once said that if they wanted to televise the ONE stage it wold take 50 cameras and 300 technicians - NOT cost effective.
So we get a handful of locations, a few helicopter shots and lots of in-car footage.
Not complaining, but it doesn't come anywhere near being in a stage as they come screaming past
The ecstacy of the few seconds of a rally car passing a few feet away is WAY ahead of the mediocrity of watching a 30minute TV program with the same cars !!

[henk4]

Four or five years ago at the Coys Historic Festival at Silverstone there was a reunion of Group B and older rallye cars using the rallye cross track at the east side of the circuit. They ran in couples against each other. I think it's called rallye sprint From vantage points you can overlook the total track and eat all the dust ( it's about 3 miles long). That would have allowed a nice TV coverage. It has nothing to do with pure rallying, but provides an opportunity to show what these cars are capable of.
The picture shows the omnipresent Tiff Needell preparing for his ride a an Escort TC.

[DasModell]

But just wait till the F1 machine has crumbled in Bernie's hands and WRCbecomes THE premiere world motorsport
( After MotoGP of course !! )

you should know better then that .. ... Grand Prix racing will always be(and always was) the nr.1 in motorsport . but WRC can rise again ... i would like that to happen .. .. and not only WRC .. sportscars racing and touring cars ..

[Matra et Alpine]

... total track and eat all the dust ( it's about 3 miles long). That would have allowed a nice TV coverage. It has nothing to do with pure rallying, but provides an opportunity to show what these cars are capable of.

Yep these special stages were creted for the TV audience and have as much relevance to rallying as drag racing has to F1 - NONE
It's all sprint. The driver has no concern over the wear of the car, possible tyre damage, overheating and unknowns. All the things which make rallying the hardest sport in racing.
Besides, the navigators only along to add the weight

[Matra et Alpine]

you should know better then that .. ... Grand Prix racing will always be(and always was) the nr.1 in motorsport . but WRC can rise again ... i would like that to happen .. .. and not only WRC .. sportscars racing and touring cars ..

It should be ( well the equal of MotoGP ) but in Bernie's hands he's destroying it.
In 5 years time there will be none of the classic tracks left to race on.
it will be all in very hot and humid countries which will make it more of a lottery.
New tracks being built are soulless tarmac, built for the TV spectacle and not to challenge the drivers and teams.
With Bernie pulling strings it'll be another George family v IRL v CART fiasco and destroy the sport.
In the meantime, sponsors are seeing the increasing coverage and interest in WRC
F1 needs to be saved before Bernie kills the golden goose