why havnt hot hatches gone rwd ??

[Ferrer]

Why else are all the Swedish cars FWD/AWD??

Look at Volvo and Saab... not a rear-driver among them. There are frequent complaints from road testers about the torque-steer on an S80 T6, or the old 9-3 HOT Aero...

FWD was originalyl designed to be good on ice/poor weather conditions. Hence why a Mini absolutely trounced huge, RWD Ford Fairlanes in 1967 (?) at the Monte Carlo rally (it could have been '69, I am open to correction...)

Actually the story is a bit different Ford Falcons were entered in 1963 and 1964 by FMC, after five Falcons were entered by Ford Australia in the 1962 Safari Rally. In 1963 the cars were caught in the Cevennes with very bad weather, the lead driver, Bo Ljungfeldt, lost 8 minutes. Bu on the six timed special stages (in the sixties rallying was slightly different from what we know as rallying today) the Falcons were a revelation, Ljungfeldt won all of them. Even after the correction formula had been considered (and this penalised the big engined Fords against the small engined Minis) he would still have won but for those 8 minutes lost in the Cevennes. In 1964 they tried again, this time with Falcon Futura Sprint's. Again Ljungfeldt set fastest times on all the special stages, but because of the correction formula he was lying 5th before the final test on the Montecarlo Grand Prix Circuit, where he drove magnificently to come up 2nd behnind Paddy Hopkirk's winning Mini Cooper 1071 S. So you see if it hadn't been for the correction formula the history could have been very different.

[IBrake4Rainbows]

So because of correction formulas ( a common addition to rallying in particular as a sort of 'handicap' system ) they would have won?

That's like saying 'I would have taken 'em had it not been for the 50 metres he had on me'. Utterly pointless.

with so many different styles of vehicles in the same class, Handicaps are a good way of nullifying the cars talent and focusing on the driver.

But back to the original question. Why are Hot Hatches FWD?

1) many are based upon your average family hatchback. they are universally FWD.
2) Packaging and engineering concerns have greater sway over percieved RWD benefits, save for BMW, but the compromise in such a small vehicle is inexcusable.
3) the recent advances in Chassis Stability software, Tyres, Suspension, Engineering etc. have led to cars which are perfect handlers despite their FWD status. there really is no need other than it being seen as 'Traditional to having perfect weight distribution'.

/End Argument.

[Ferrer]

So because of correction formulas ( a common addition to rallying in particular as a sort of 'handicap' system ) they would have won?

In 1963, even with the correction formulas they would still have won, if it hadn't been for those 8 minutes lost in the Cevennes. And in 1964, yes they would have won if it wasn't for the correction formulas.

[fpv_gtho]

So because of correction formulas ( a common addition to rallying in particular as a sort of 'handicap' system ) they would have won?

That's like saying 'I would have taken 'em had it not been for the 50 metres he had on me'. Utterly pointless.

with so many different styles of vehicles in the same class, Handicaps are a good way of nullifying the cars talent and focusing on the driver.

But back to the original question. Why are Hot Hatches FWD?

1) many are based upon your average family hatchback. they are universally FWD.
2) Packaging and engineering concerns have greater sway over percieved RWD benefits, save for BMW, but the compromise in such a small vehicle is inexcusable.
3) the recent advances in Chassis Stability software, Tyres, Suspension, Engineering etc. have led to cars which are perfect handlers despite their FWD status. there really is no need other than it being seen as 'Traditional to having perfect weight distribution'.

/End Argument.

In this case it was relevant though as Ferrer was proving that Mini's didnt beat their RWD competition at times purely by a traction advantage.

[Ferrer]

In this case it was relevant though as Ferrer was proving that Mini's didnt beat their RWD competition at times purely by a traction advantage.

Exactly, and not only, that without denying the Mini's strenghts, many of the Mini's outstanding success relied on careful planification by the BMC Competition Deaprtment, arranging service vans and cars in precise points of the rally's route and making drivers go to practice the stages, thus developing pace notes. What's more one arguably could say that the most sucessful rally cars until very nearly the 80's were rear-engined Lancias, Alpines and Porsches.

[IBrake4Rainbows]

Exactly, and not only, that without denying the Mini's strenghts, many of the Mini's outstanding success relied on careful planification by the BMC Competition Deaprtment, arranging service vans and cars in precise points of the rally's route and making drivers go to practice the stages, thus developing pace notes. What's more one arguably could say that the most sucessful rally cars until very nearly the 80's were rear-engined Lancias, Alpines and Porsches.

So essentially It was good planning and preparation on the Part of BMC that ensured the vehicles success? Makes sense.

[Ferrer]

So essentially It was good planning and preparation on the Part of BMC that ensured the vehicles success? Makes sense.

Not only but yes, if you see form the late 60's when all the other teams started using racing tires and planning carefully the events they attended Minis quickly vanished from the top of the list results, and by 1970 the team had virtually disappeared, and they wouldn't return to international rallying until the late 70's (except for a fwe appearances in the long distance marathons like the London to Sydney) with a very different beast, the Triumph TR7 and later the TR7 V8.

[Coventrysucks]

So essentially It was good planning and preparation on the Part of BMC that ensured the vehicles success? Makes sense.

BMC - "good planning and preparation".

Are you having some sort of joke?

[nota]

Actually the story is a bit different Ford Falcons were entered in 1963 and 1964 by FMC, after five Falcons were entered by Ford Australia in the 1962 Safari Rally

Ferrer your mention of that 1962 event reminded me of this amusing anecdote from one of the crew ..

"One particular event sticks in his mind as being a real challenge for car and driver - the 1962 East African Safari in which he drove one of Ford Australia's five XK Falcons. While the event itself was more than memorable, the recce that the five crews did was an adventure in itself.

Travelling the route before the rally in a trio of Ford Zephyrs, the cars were spread out over the African countryside, just far enough apart to avoid the constant dust from the car in front. Ken Harper was the lead car and during a particularly rocky section, the Zephyr broke a Pitman arm on the steering, spearing off over the edge and landing banana-shape on a huge rock some metres down.

Unable to scramble back up the hill to flag down the following car, the luckless crew were forced to sit and wait until the second car - noticing that the trail of dust was no longer ahead of them - returned to the crash scene. Piling into the second Zephyr, the 4 headed off to continue the recce.

Then the unthinkable happened and the second car also broke a Pitman arm and had to be abandoned. By this time the third Zephyr was on the scene, duly loaded with a total of 8 people, and made its hot and sweaty way into Mombasa late at night and barely managing to make forward motion."

http://www.rallysportmag.com/cms/A_100429/article.html

Btw although now almost forgotten but Falcons did well in tough Australasian rallys of the 1960s & '70s. To add to your (obviously) wide knowledge .. http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/forum...&postcount=517 http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/forum...&postcount=626

I recall a GT-HO Phase 1 Falcon AVERAGED an impressive 129mph during one stage of New Zealand's Heatway Rally, way back in 1969 or 1970

[Ferrer]

Ferrer your mention of that 1962 event reminded me of this amusing anecdote from one of the crew ..

"One particular event sticks in his mind as being a real challenge for car and driver - the 1962 East African Safari in which he drove one of Ford Australia's five XK Falcons. While the event itself was more than memorable, the recce that the five crews did was an adventure in itself.

Travelling the route before the rally in a trio of Ford Zephyrs, the cars were spread out over the African countryside, just far enough apart to avoid the constant dust from the car in front. Ken Harper was the lead car and during a particularly rocky section, the Zephyr broke a Pitman arm on the steering, spearing off over the edge and landing banana-shape on a huge rock some metres down.

Unable to scramble back up the hill to flag down the following car, the luckless crew were forced to sit and wait until the second car - noticing that the trail of dust was no longer ahead of them - returned to the crash scene. Piling into the second Zephyr, the 4 headed off to continue the recce.

Then the unthinkable happened and the second car also broke a Pitman arm and had to be abandoned. By this time the third Zephyr was on the scene, duly loaded with a total of 8 people, and made its hot and sweaty way into Mombasa late at night and barely managing to make forward motion."

http://www.rallysportmag.com/cms/A_100429/article.html

Btw although now almost forgotten but Falcons did well in tough Australasian rallys of the 1960s & '70s. To add to your (obviously) wide knowledge .. http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/forum...&postcount=517 http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/forum...&postcount=626

I recall a GT-HO Phase 1 Falcon AVERAGED an impressive 129mph during one stage of New Zealand's Heatway Rally, way back in 1969 or 1970

Very interesting indeed, but it's a shame they didn't get to do more international outings...

[spi-ti-tout]

Not ready to stop talking about it yet Ferrer?

[Ferrer]

Not ready to stop talking about it yet Ferrer?

No, not yet...

[IBrake4Rainbows]

BMC - "good planning and preparation".

Are you having some sort of joke?

You know I only really got the Irony of my Comment when you put it in that context.

[spi-ti-tout]

No, not yet...

Keep at it some more and you might get paid....


....to go

[jeremiah]

Despite muscle vehicles and super vehicles having their enthusiasts, several individuals are also fanatic about “hot hatches,” the small hatchbacks tuned for equal power and economy. Very soon, the Fiat 500 Abarth will debut, and start giving other subcompacts a run for their money.