favourite motorsport?

[fpv_gtho]

for the most, it sounds like a pretty good idea, but i dont think a control transmission is a good idea. sure it provides something thats bound to be strong enough but there'll be alot of hassle trying to find something thats sutiable for all eligible cars. i dont believe though, that the power and weight limits should be the same across the range. for instance, say if a falcon GT had a minimum weight of 1600kg and maximum power of 350kw, i would rather see a celica go up against it with 270kw and a fair enough weight rather than be weighed down and carry the same 350kw.

[Falcon500]

Agreed no one off...but if they allow smaller build numbers for small companys would that not be somehwat unfair? Im thinking of 1000 or maybey less....
Also the reason why i suggested local models be homaoliglated is so that people can associate more with the cars knowing they can buy a strong more localised car (eg a 350Z will never be as local as a Falcon or commadore but more localised asi said).
The mods sound ok but i dont really agree on your standarised gearbox idea...how about modified stock? a hollinger would almost undoubtly cost more then a holligner item...and most of these cars more then likly could have their drive train modified totake the bashing a modifed engine could dishout...also gives more of a connection to the road car....
suspension sounds ok and break upgrades should also be included with the GT should be modifed stock or a new system all together for example....same with other cars...that also comes under safety issues.
Some flareing should be alloud with wider rubber on offer too these are race cars and more contact on the road is a good idea...though i think the ratio idea isnt a bad one...
Stock Body kits should be maintained and the other idea with homliglation is that manufacturos can prepare them selves better for this....Regulated of course nothing too wild.
agreed on the gutted interiors and safety items i would also like to include 4 or more point harnesses and raceing seats...possibly contorlled? of course a seat that sits well in one car might makeit hard tosee out of another...maybey a restriction on matiral used in consturction?
Weights should already be like thay have in GT-P which essiantly is what the base model or an agreed amount weights...
Idont like the sucsess ballist idea...it punishes a winner instead of congratulating them...i think close scruteniering is the idea and rember a better car should be aloud to winr ater then being hobbled (one of the short commings in nations cup which i think gets spoilt when someone does wellone race and crap in the next because they baiscly have the weight of another person in it)
I think the displacement class sounds good but rember i dont think top level cars should really be threatend by lower class models...but of course if their win they win...and my idea about Homoliglation will more then likely make sure that such makers like aston martin and such wouldent even bother....
As for my group C imt hinking like when the race was before...an accepted homliglated system that this time will be closely scrutineered...engine power...the aforementiond amount of around 350kw sounds great for the big bangers...
Lobbying should be aloud but only if agroup of drivers (not just one) comeup with a legitimate reason to change something due to unfairness or frailness for example...
all in all not a bad idea...

[Falcon500]

for the most, it sounds like a pretty good idea, but i dont think a control transmission is a good idea. sure it provides something thats bound to be strong enough but there'll be alot of hassle trying to find something thats sutiable for all eligible cars. i dont believe though, that the power and weight limits should be the same across the range. for instance, say if a falcon GT had a minimum weight of 1600kg and maximum power of 350kw, i would rather see a celica go up against it with 270kw and a fair enough weight rather than be weighed down and carry the same 350kw.

And ilike that idea about keeping a cars charitoristics eg if the cars light keep it that way....limitations on the engine itself with whats given mroe then likly would stop us seeing a 350kw celica for example...and the mods would have to scrutenerd and agreed upon more then likly giveing a more sedate hp but lower weight...that said id rather see it like group C with brillaint little scraps at the back of the field with smaller cars and seeing good scraps at the front with lapping higher class cars storming around the field...

[stratos]

1. F1
2. WRC
3. DTM
4. Le Mans

[fpv_gtho]

And ilike that idea about keeping a cars charitoristics eg if the cars light keep it that way....limitations on the engine itself with whats given mroe then likly would stop us seeing a 350kw celica for example...and the mods would have to scrutenerd and agreed upon more then likly giveing a more sedate hp but lower weight...that said id rather see it like group C with brillaint little scraps at the back of the field with smaller cars and seeing good scraps at the front with lapping higher class cars storming around the field...

well the problem with keeping each cars characteristics is where do you draw the line on midifications? who decides how much power a 1800kg sedan needs compared to a 1300kg coupe? who decides how much weight each of them can shed, all the things like that

[Falcon500]

well the problem with keeping each cars characteristics is where do you draw the line on midifications? who decides how much power a 1800kg sedan needs compared to a 1300kg coupe? who decides how much weight each of them can shed, all the things like that

Yeah well classes will help decide what they can and cannot do though it needs some fine tuneing...cost more thne likly should be a vairble too...

[fpv_gtho]

well classes could be good and they could be bad. they could stop a GT Falcon going up against a Proton Satria and they could also stop a GT going up against an XR6T. Sure you dont want things to get as rediculous as the first case but people will want to see lesser sports cars like Celica's, Integras, WRX's etc going up against V8 Commodores and Falcons

[Falcon500]

And they do in GT-Pin case you didnt notice....itll be much like the group C days with the rx7 series 2 mitsu Starion against v8 commadores and v8 falcons...while you heard of the exploits of the latter 2 the first still done great in their time as well and where also outright cars too...and nowdays with the technology avoible and other doo dads the japs cars will still be there with them...

[motorsportnerd]

Couple of points on a possible new touring car catagory.
First, I agree that racing brakes should be used. And the control transmission idea might not work. However, transmissions should still be 6-speed manual (remember some cars such as Mercedes C32 are auto only), possibly sequential. Also, all cars must have a roof (no convertables) and be front engined (no Porsches).
Second, on the issue of weights. Once the cars interiors have been gutted and airconditioning, sound deadening, stereo, passenger seats, carpets, etc, have been removed, the cars will weigh considerably less. I think that RWD cars should be used as the control. For example a 360kW Falcon GT (RWD) could weigh 1450 kg in race spec while an Audi RS6 with similar power but AWD could weigh 1500 kg. I'm thinking FWD should be minus 50 from the control and AWD plus 50. To keep weights relatively simple, I'd suggest that cars with over 350 kW weigh 1400 kg (FWD), 1450 kg (RWD) and 1500 kg (AWD). Then work on a sliding scale backwards as power gets less. Say -25kg for each reduction of 20 KW. So a 330 KW BMW M3 would weigh 1425 kg while a 330 kW Audi S4 would weigh 1475 kg. That should keep the power/weight relatively close while compensating for the positive/negative aspects of particular drivetrains. If a particular car was so heavy in production trim that it would never make the minimum weight, then perhaps some performance concession in the way of extra engine mods could be considered.
Third, on the issue of classes. In no way would I forsee a Toyota Celica developing 350 kW unless Toyota reintroduced a turbo version. It would be a class car. Again, classes should be based on power. So all cars in Class 1 would in standard trim produce over 200 kW (race trim 260 KW plus). Class 2 would in production trim produce 150-200 kW (race trim 210-260 kW). Class 3 cars would in production trim produce 100-150 kW (race trim 160-210 kW). And all others in Class 4. Thus small capacity cars with a lot of power would be in classes against big capacity cars with similar power.
Examples of the types of cars I forsee in each class are as follows.
Class 1 (based on cars with production outputs of over 200 kW): Audi S4, Audi RS6, BMW M3, BMW 645 Ci, Cadillac CTS, Ford Mustang, Ford Falcon XR6T, XR8 & GT, Holden Commodore SS, Holden Monaro, HSV Clubsport R8, HSV Coupe & Coupe4, Jaguar S-Type R, Jaguar XJ-R, Mercedes C32 AMG, Mercedes CLK500, Mercedes CLK55, Mercedes E500, MG ZT260, Mitsubishi Lancer Evo 8, Mitsubishi Galant VR4, Nissan 350Z, Pontiac GTO, Subaru Liberty/Legacy GT, Subaru Impreza WRX STI, Volvo S60R.
Class 2 (based on cars with production outputs of 150-200kW): Alfa Romeo 147 GTA, Alfa Romeo 156 GTA, Audi A3 32. Sport Quattro, Audi TT Quattro Coupe, BMW 330CI, BMW 330D, Chrysler Crossfire, Ford Focus RS, Ford Mondeo ST200, Honda Civic Type R, Honda S2000, Jaguar X-Type 3.0, Lexus IS300, Mazda RX8, Mercedes C320 sedan/coupe, Mitsubishi Magna VRX, Saab 9-3 Aero, Seat Leon Cupra R, Subaru Impreza WRX, VW Golf R32, Volvo S40T.
Class 3 (based on cars with production outputs of 100-150kW): This is where the hot hatches would compete - Audi A4 1.8T Quattro, Audi TT Coupe, BMW 318Ti, BMW 320i, Fiat Stilo Abarth, Ford Focus ST170, Holden/Vauxhall/Opel Astra Turbo, Honda Integra Type R, Hyundai Tiburon/Coupe V6, Lexus IS200, Mazda 6, Mazda 3SP, MG ZT180, Mini Cooper S Works, Peugeot 206 GTi 180, Proton Satia GTi, Renault Clio Sport, Skoda Octavia 1.8T vRS,Subaru Impreza RS, Toyota Corolla GTi/Sportivo, Toyota Celica, VW Golf GTi, VW Bora V5.
Class 4 (based on cars with production outputs of under 100kW): Audi A3, BMW 316Ti, Citroen C3 1.6, Daihatsu Sirion, Fiat Punto HGT, Ford Focus 2.0, Ford Fiesta ST, Holden/Vauxhall/Opel Barina/Corsa SRi, Mini Cooper, MG ZR120, Peugeot 206 GTi, Seat Leon 1.8 20v, Toyota Corolla, VW Polo Sport.

Whew, long list. And not so heavy on Australian cars. However, I'm thinking along the lines of a possible global FIA catagory. In each region no doubt you'd see an emphasis on the local machinery. There could be regional/country championships which each championship sending their top 4/5 cars to a World Series at the end of the year made up of, say, 4 races with one race in Europe, one in Asia, one in America and one in Australia. As you can see, I've put some thought in to this. Of course, its all hypothetical.

[fpv_gtho]

Second, on the issue of weights. Once the cars interiors have been gutted and airconditioning, sound deadening, stereo, passenger seats, carpets, etc, have been removed, the cars will weigh considerably less. I think that RWD cars should be used as the control. For example a 360kW Falcon GT (RWD) could weigh 1450 kg in race spec while an Audi RS6 with similar power but AWD could weigh 1500 kg. I'm thinking FWD should be minus 50 from the control and AWD plus 50. To keep weights relatively simple, I'd suggest that cars with over 350 kW weigh 1400 kg (FWD), 1450 kg (RWD) and 1500 kg (AWD). Then work on a sliding scale backwards as power gets less. Say -25kg for each reduction of 20 KW. So a 330 KW BMW M3 would weigh 1425 kg while a 330 kW Audi S4 would weigh 1475 kg. That should keep the power/weight relatively close while compensating for the positive/negative aspects of particular drivetrains. If a particular car was so heavy in production trim that it would never make the minimum weight, then perhaps some performance concession in the way of extra engine mods could be considered.

it all sounds like a good idea, but i think it could end up benefiting some cars more than others. for example, get a 200kw RWD car at around 1400kg, a similarly powered AWD car would be 1450kg. then you get a 300kw RWD car weighing around 1600kg. a similarly powered AWD car would then have to be 1650kg. my point of all this is, the 50kg weight deficit is going to feel more on the 200kw car then on the 300kw car, so how are you going to get around that

[motorsportnerd]

it all sounds like a good idea, but i think it could end up benefiting some cars more than others. for example, get a 200kw RWD car at around 1400kg, a similarly powered AWD car would be 1450kg. then you get a 300kw RWD car weighing around 1600kg. a similarly powered AWD car would then have to be 1650kg. my point of all this is, the 50kg weight deficit is going to feel more on the 200kw car then on the 300kw car, so how are you going to get around that

The idea of a weight penalty for AWD is to counteract the traction advantages of AWD of the starting line and on power down out of corners. No other reason. If a RWD and AWD car raced at the same weight, then on most circuits the AWD car would be superior due to the superior traction on offer. Note that during the super touring era the Audi A4 Quattros raced with a 100 kg penalty over the FWD cars and 50 kg over the RWD cars and still won.

[Falcon500]

The weightpenaltyto be quitefrank is a bit of awank...it needs more consideration testing and scrutenering to be properly used on the track....and as i said i would like to keep the charictoristics of these cars so it will have to be tested so to slow them around corners...as another noteon a track like bathurst the rwd cars will no doubt runaway with their greatly improved drivetrain losses...prehaps we could remove the weight on more flowing circuts...
If the car came auto only then so be it....where not buying the car for hem to race whereonly makeing hypathetical rules...that and the fact that 6 gears more then likly are overkill for every car not in class 1!
You list is devoid of any of the small sports cars eg lotus...but of course thats your choice....
Prehaps we could reintorduce the world champaionship haveing a few races in each competing county eg like in 87 they had 4 in australia 2 in NZ a heap all throughout europe and about 2 from america and 2 from japan...probly should be a spot for england too....

[motorsportnerd]

The weightpenaltyto be quitefrank is a bit of awank...it needs more consideration testing and scrutenering to be properly used on the track....and as i said i would like to keep the charictoristics of these cars so it will have to be tested so to slow them around corners...as another noteon a track like bathurst the rwd cars will no doubt runaway with their greatly improved drivetrain losses...prehaps we could remove the weight on more flowing circuts...
If the car came auto only then so be it....where not buying the car for hem to race whereonly makeing hypathetical rules...that and the fact that 6 gears more then likly are overkill for every car not in class 1!
You list is devoid of any of the small sports cars eg lotus...but of course thats your choice....
Prehaps we could reintorduce the world champaionship haveing a few races in each competing county eg like in 87 they had 4 in australia 2 in NZ a heap all throughout europe and about 2 from america and 2 from japan...probly should be a spot for england too....

The idea of extra weight for AWD and FWD would of course be controversal. It was in Super Touring. The BMW teams always used to complain about having to carry more weight than the front wheel drive. And Audi complained it was just a way to slow down the best car when the FWD/RWD teams should just work harder. You're right about flowing tracks negating the AWD advantages. Bathurst was by far the worst track for the Audis, but they didn't go well at the superfast Monza circuit either. FWDs, like the Volvo S60R would also be good on the flowing circuits. Maybe 50 kg penalty for AWDs is too much. Maybe it could be looked at depending on whether any AWD car actually started to dominate...

As for small sports cars, I didn't even think of them. I'm not sure they fit with my idea of what a Touring Car Catagory should be - ie: a roof, front engine, no convertables. The Lotus's etc, can be catered for by GT-N. I think that is the more appropriate catagory for low volume, open-top sports cars.

Gearboxes - 6 speeds would be overkill for a little Corolla in class 4. Perhaps the rule could read "maximum of 6-speeds."

Also, thinking the most powerful car accepted would be the Mercedes E500 (road car - 350 kW, race car - somewhere around 420 kW). Most power front driver would be the Volvo S60R (road car - 220 kW, race car 280 kW). Also, correct me if I'm wrong, isn't the Volvo S60R the most powerful FWD road car anyway? Its certainly the most power FWD car with any performance pretentions.

Finally, I'd haven't considered the differences in torque. That is one area where cars would probably gain advantages over each other (depending on circuit).

[Falcon500]

Well its ok for a car to win.... its ok for a car to win often...its ok for a car to win by a country mile...but if it does all of the above then it needs some thinking....and sadly it just lets the fans of the car (UGH Skyline fans who ingore the fact group A was not popular for anyone but them....) to say awww they hobbeld/got rid of it becuase it was the best....that really shits me...sorry just had to say it aloud
Fair enough i think thats a good idea really since where focususing more on real world cars hence no lambos and ferraris and stuff...
Sounds good...and i think its ok if hollinger can be involved with the construction of the new modified gearbox too...
Torque very good and usually takes a back burner in motorsport.....its hardly talked about compaired to hp...i think it might slide unless its an issue with domination...

[fpv_gtho]

The idea of a weight penalty for AWD is to counteract the traction advantages of AWD of the starting line and on power down out of corners. No other reason. If a RWD and AWD car raced at the same weight, then on most circuits the AWD car would be superior due to the superior traction on offer. Note that during the super touring era the Audi A4 Quattros raced with a 100 kg penalty over the FWD cars and 50 kg over the RWD cars and still won.

Thats not addressing the issue i brought up that having a fixed weight limit is going to change some cars more than others. Having a 50kg weight increase on a 1400kg car is going to change the power to weight ratio more than a 50kg weight increase on an 1800kg car.



I thought the S60R was AWD Being part of the PAG, I dont think they wouldve attempted 220kw through the front wheels when Ford almost were about to give up sending 160kw through the Focus RS