Israel v. Lebanon

[IBrake4Rainbows]

Israel has become a victim in this whole argument because they're the ones who were attacked first - using the US version of 'Pre-Emptive Striking' so that they can hit back, in complete disproportion, and ensure that

A) these kidnapped soldiers die (if they weren't already dead)
B) They piss off another generation of the Middle east
C)a Reasonably stable government (Lebanon has not been at war for a long time now) gets pissed and turns hardline against them.

Fantastic work. but of course nothing will be done against Israel as they are merely 'defending themselves', which the US will back.

I'm actually So annoyed at the situation i'm surprised i managed to type something that wasn't calling for sanctions against Israel.

The UN created her in 1948, and, like Frankensteins monster, it's now out of control.

[IBrake4Rainbows]

They also bombed an airport, so no civilians can get out of the war zone that they created...

and why do so many people spell it Isreal?

And ports aren't safe. And they bombed the main highway leading to Syria, the other main escape route for trapped civilians.

Is this classed as a war crime?

No doubt Isreal is a typo - although if there was some emphasis on the E it might be accepted pronunciation.

And the Airport was bombed, no doubt, to prevent any other unmanned drones attacking those who are attacking.,.....

[Dino Scuderia]

Surely you mean the United States against Iran. Israel is backed by the US as much as Hezballah is backed by Iran. Politically and militarily. Don't make that mistake again.

No, I'm sure I meant Israel against Iran.

[kingofthering]

Yes and no...

You can't blame the British, only the people in the British government at the time when it took place.

Quite frankly, I am stunned that the international community is doing approximately bugger all about this situation.

Lets recap.

1 soldier is kidnapped, so the first thing the Israelis do is bomb the powerstation in Gaza so that 75% of the population won't have any power for the next 6 months, followed by kidnapping of democratically elected Hamas government officials (apparently kidnapping Israeli people is bad, kidnapping Palestinians is fine & dandy), and bombing of "government" & "terrorist" facilities, except for some reason, instead of killing anyone in the Palestinian government or any terrorists, the Israelis just seem to keep killing loads of women and children. Nice.

Then, in an effort to diffuse the cituation, when 2 more Israeli soldiers are kidnapped, we have pretty much all-out war in an instant.

How the hell can Israel ever expect Arab terrorists to let them live in peace when they pull stunts like this?

There has been no effort for diplomacy, just bombing.

Imagine if a Canadian man, not directly representing the official government, kidnapped 3 Americans - would America start bombing all of Canada the instant that they found out?

I find it very hard to feel sympathy for Israel when it is becoming a genocidal maniac of a country that sees the only way to achieve "peace" in the middle-east, is to bomb all Arabs into submission (with USA planes, tanks & bombs) and occupy their countries.

this israel thing is like (to quote king of the hill) a tire fire, youve got to sit back and let it burn

[aiasib]

No, I'm sure I meant Israel against Iran.

you should brush up on the political and military history of the region, no offence or anything, I'm sure you're as learned as the next guy, perhaps even more, but have a look at past and current weaponry deals, everything from NorthrupG, to Lockheed et al, similarities in foreign policy, voting directions for both nations on UN resolutions. Hezballah are standing on the shoulders of Iran no more than Israel are standing on the shoulders of the US.


PS: drones do not take off from the airport, they are not allowed to, any smooth paved road 50m is enough, they can even takeoff from dirt tracks. Local lebanese politics would never allow hezballah drones to take off from beirut international airport.

[Dino Scuderia]

you should brush up on the political and military history of the region, no offence or anything, I'm sure you're as learned as the next guy, perhaps even more, but have a look at past and current weaponry deals, everything from NorthrupG, to Lockheed et al, similarities in foreign policy, voting directions for both nations on UN resolutions. Hezballah are standing on the shoulders of Iran no more than Israel are standing on the shoulders of the US.


PS: drones do not take off from the airport, they are not allowed to, any smooth paved road 50m is enough, they can even takeoff from dirt tracks. Local lebanese politics would never allow hezballah drones to take off from beirut international airport.

I never said USA doesn't back Israel, I'm saying the root issue is Iran, amongst others in the region, against Israel...we back them for that reason not so much that we are against Iran.

Iran and others use and supports Hezbollah, Hamas and other factions to do it's work against Israel, America is the only thing standing in the way of Iran commencing an all out war directly to eliminate Israel completely.

[IBrake4Rainbows]

I never said USA doesn't back Israel, I'm saying the root issue is Iran, amongst others in the region, against Israel...we back them for that reason not so much that we are against Iran.

Iran and others use and supports Hezbollah, Hamas and other factions to do it's work against Israel, America is the only thing standing in the way of Iran commencing an all out war directly to eliminate Israel completely.

HAMAS was elected by one of the fairest elections ever undertaken in the region - and thats as observed by outsiders.

What gives Israel the right to do what it does to these poor civilians because a militant-tied political party is in power?

Iran does support the Hezbollah in Lebanon by giving them weaponry, so why then is

A) Israel not attacking Iran?
B)Israel is Instead attacking civilian targets with the perceived aim of bombing the country back into the stone age?

When your up against such an organised group of people seemingly running rampant through your country, I can almost see where Militants get their ideas.

[aiasib]

yes,

However, you must acknowledge that your point of view is relativistic, and that whilst you may be correct in stating the inherent "nemesisity" between Israel and Iran, the people in and around the region (save Israel) ultimately see their root issue or peeve as the US.

[Jack_Bauer]

A big part of the problem is the disparity between the military forces of Israel and every other Arab country. Israel has vastly superior military resources and effectively gives them the position of the bully boys of the Middle East. They feel that if anyone wrongs them they can just use their military might to attempt to crush them. Some of their Middle East rivals cannot compete in military terms and their only form of defence is much smaller scale "terrorist" activity. So you get suicide bombers killing innocent civilians, retaliated by military airstrikes indiscriminately killing innocent civilians. It's a lose-lose situation for the governments and, most importantly, the people of the Middle East.

Hopefully this latest speight of quite horrendous military activity by the Israelies will finally bring unilateral condemnation from the international community, something that has never truly happened with Israel and the US's "cosy" little relationship. Sadly America's UN representative John Bolton was quick to lay all the blame for the escalating violence on Iran and Syria, thus cunningly sidestepping the fact that their friends in Israel are commiting some fairly atrocious and most likely illegal acts in Lebanon. The only way Israel are going to become less trigger-happy is if they have a serious threat of sanctions hanging over their head. While they still have the support US that is unlikely to happen.

[IBrake4Rainbows]

Why would the US allow sanctions when they can let Israel deal with the small scale stuff in the Middle East?

As long as Israel are considered the aggressors and the US the 'Diplomatic median' between the warring factions they really don't care. that and it's handy to have a non-muslim foothold country in such an area.

John Bolton, If I may say bluntly, is a tool. That feels better

[Coventrysucks]

this israel thing is like (to quote king of the hill) a tire fire, youve got to sit back and let it burn

No, you can't.

There is a real global crisis here; of Middle East vs West.

Why do all of these Arab countries hate the USA & the West? Well, largely because they support Israel, and don't do anything to stop them.

This gives rise to terrorists, and the general poplation in these areas aren't really given much of an incentive to put an end to these terrorist groups.

If the USA and the West really wants to stop terror; sorting Israel vs Palestine/Lebanon/Syria/Egypt/Iran now, would be a great start.

Instead they just sit back and allow Israel to behave completely outside of any law, without common restraint or decency, and it merely fuels the hatred of people who are attacking Israel in the first place, and other Western countries who support them.

I don't condone the actions of the terrorists attacking Israel, certainly there are two sides to the conflict, but they are terrorists, and you really have to expect them to act like bastards.

You shouldn't expect the proper government of a country to act in the same manner. All of the other governments that do are branded as "evil", apart from Israel, who we can't upset because of the Holocaust.

[Dino Scuderia]

Good points all.

[coolieman1220]

its all about unleashed tension. they have been fighting for many years. now it just ended up exploding into a big problem. now idk why the US backs israel soo damn much. its like whats the damn point. we support other countries that help us in return. im sorry but there arn't enough israelies out there to help us. how many troops did israel send to iraq? and there excuse was what we need them here. meanwhile all our equipment is in israel helping them. its gonna be a lot of violence that won't stop. as long as it doesn't come to the USA. on another note, i say BLAME ENGLAND!. they created israel out of nowhere and once again screwed shit up. they like to do that. now they just sit back but look at the bombings in india. why becuase of england. oh well

[Clique]

all valid points although i think Jack Bauer, IMO, is right... its a shame that nothing seems to be happening to israel even though they are killing many innocent civilians...yes terrorists also kill many innocent people but they are a small minority whereas Israel is a country surely if the west wants to get rid of terrorism they shoudl start with israel...all this hate towards the west is alot to do with the west's support of israel..
also the USA is more than happy to place sanctions or even war againest Iran even though Iran hasnt shown any agression whereas Israel is killing innocent therefore shoulnt the USA stop them???

[Coventrysucks]

i say BLAME ENGLAND!. they created israel out of nowhere and once again screwed shit up.

Why blame England?

To start with; "The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland."

England is part of Great Britain, and has no specific government of its own, so any blame for any decision or action taken by the Government of the UK cannot simply be laid singly upon either England, Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland.

It is a similar concept to only "blaming" Oregon for the invasion of Iraq, rather than the USA.

Second of all, I think that most of the people in British Government at the time these decisions were taken are all dead, so why should the majority of the UK's 60 million inhabitants be "blamed" for the actions of a government that it had no part in electing?

You might as well blame the English for the actions of the French government, becuase we didn't elect them either.

2nd; get some facts on the matter:

The Palestinian Mandate was given to the UK by the UN in 1920, after British politician Arthur Balfour had suggested the creation of a Jewish homeland in the region of Palestine.

The World Zionist organisation supported this action, and during the 1930s the British administration found itself between militants on both sides - Arabs opposing the formation of what would become "Israel" and Jewish militants supporting the idea of a homeland - one such group being the "Fighters for the Freedom of Israel".

In 1945 there were 100,000 British troops in the region attempting to deal with the terrorists from both sides.

With so much antipathy towards the British, public opinion turned against the Palestinian Mandate, and in 1947 the British Government asked the UN to resolve the situation.

On 29th November 1947 the UN passed a resolution to divide Palestine into a Jewish and an Arab state.

The British, still under fire in the region, quickly pulled out, and in May 1948 David Ben-Gurion declared the foundation of the State of Israel, and became the country's first Prime Minister.

The day after, Israel was invaded by an Arabian voulenteer force from Egypt, Syria and Transjordan, and after a ceasefire in 1949, 600 - 750,000 Palestinians became refugees and were moved to the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, and Israel secured 21% more land than had been appointed by the UN for the creation of the Jewish State.

So, how is it exclusively the British who are to blame, if the creation of Israel was planned and executed by the UN?

now they just sit back

I agree that the British government does too little to resolve the conflict, but after the second World War, Britain lost power, and its position as one of the major political forces in the world.

The British government has neither the resources or political clout to make any meaningful progress in resolving the conflict on its own.

Blair has an audience with Bush, but Bush isn't going to do anything to upset Israel, because the USA needs a strong ally in the region, and they buy large ammounts of American military hardware.

but look at the bombings in india. why becuase of england. oh well

How do you work that one out?

To apportion blame to the people that caused the problem is completely futile.

Even if there was the smallest case to successfully "Blame England" for the current problems in the Middle East, what does it achieve?

Will the trouble dissapear suddenly, as if no conflict between Jewish people and Arabs had ever existed, and they will all live in peace and harmony for all eternity, simply because you managed to "blame" someone?

The parties that deserve criticism are those that are not doing anything about the current situation, and really, the only people that have any reasonable audience with the Israeli govt. is the USA.

If the USA threatens to cut off the supply of military hardware, I'm sure there would be more negotiation to be had - however, and call me cynical if you will, with lots of people around Bush and his administration involved in weapons manufacture, I fear it would be found that restricting arms trade with Israel would be "too harmful for the US economy" or something.