why do people who dont like vtec ... dont like vtec?

[Slicks]

He never made any mistake?

Not by saying torque moves the car.

Well if the cars are otherwise identical, then the car at 2,000 RPMs is going half the speed of the car at 4,000 rpms.

Im talking about the same, single car, not two.

Does a car accelerate faster from 0 - 60 mph or from 100 - 160 mph? The speed at which the acceleration takes place matters.

0-60 because of gearing(more wheel torque in the lower gears=better acceleration) and aerodynamics.

[Slicks]

OK who doesn't know the famous quote from Shelby? the thing is that it is wrong.

In what way is he wrong? The paragrpah below exactly describes what hes talking about. wheel torque wins races.

Your car accelerates on it's thrust curve exactly, thrust in a car is the torque at the wheels after it is modified by the gearbox, differential, and diameter of the wheel and tire. so in your example if you accelerate from 2000rpm with 300lbs/ft of torque and then try accelerating at 4000rpm with still 300lbs/ft of torque and if you were using the same gear for both then guess what...
When you accelerated from 4000rpm you used more power!

Yes and? You didnt accelerate any harder...

because you were already moving at a higher speed than if you started accelerating from 2000 in the same gear. Now lets try something even better. Use 4th gear and accelerate from 2000rpm and 40mph then try again using 3rd gear and stomping on it from 4000rpm and 40mph. What happens? You accelerate much faster in the lower gear, why? because the thrust the car generates in that gear is greater.

Thank you captain obveous.

Now I will tell you what the point of HP is. Higher HP means you can gear things lower and generate more thrust.

That is where your wrong. Higher RPM means you gear things lower.
Think about what you said. So if I add headers and exhaust to my car, Im making more HP, so I should gear it lower now?

Oh and about the supras only people who don't know how to tune the engine will do that. There are plenty of 8 second and faster supras that barely make more than 1000hp. Also show me the HP curves that show a peak HP figure that lasts longer than 200rpm? most peak HP figures barely last 100rpm.

I meant torque, but Ive seen many peak hp curves last over 1000Rpms, the torque curve just has to drop.

[KnifeEdge_2K1]

Yes, wheel torque is what counts.

Or you could do the opposite, and use gear ratios to put down even more torque. Whats your point?

because you'd have less power, all the torque in the world doesnt matter if you have a top speed of 10

like i already said, you only stay in each gear for 2000-3000rpm, what's the point of making 95% of peak torque at 2000rpm if you're never going to be at 2000 rpm excluding a dead start

[Slicks]

Carrol Shelby is not a genius and was never the greatest of speakers. What he did with his hands didn't always match what he said. Now when he said the famous quote of "HP sells cars, Torque wins races" what he meant was "high peak HP values sells cars, The HP curve (especially low rpm HP which requires alot of low down torque) wins races."

He didn't mean peak torque wins races...

He never said peak torque wins races, that would be wrong. Its torque CURVE hes talking about.

[KnifeEdge_2K1]

The thing with large dispalced engines is they make gobs of torque no matter how much throttle your using. I pass traffic feathering my throttle and shifting at 1500-2000RPMs(2001 Trans Am).

you're also using alot more fuel then a small displacement engine
and as for feathering ur throttle to pass traffic at 2000rpm ... does this make you think you have a monster of a car ?? like i said, in most cases a fat torque curve is a waste, just drop down a gear and you're set to go, like i said, if you destroke the engine a bit and widen the bore (to keep same displacement) then you'd have just as much usable torque, but performance at the top end would be greatly increased

Im going to have to disagree.
For starters many people dont know how to drive a manual, and not because they are too "lazy" but because it usually has an image of being 'inferior' to an auto (this is to the common man, not a performance enthusiest). I know many people who think that conventional autos are quicker than manuals. And remember, here we generally seem to care more for dragracing than road racing. Many of our base cars come in autos, and charge for the manual option, and some cars dont even come in manual. Many girls I know are scared of breaking something if they dont know how to drive a stick.
And I dont blame people for not wanting to do clutch work in rush hour traffic.

and this matters because ...

[KnifeEdge_2K1]

In what way is he wrong? The paragrpah below exactly describes what hes talking about. wheel torque wins races.

Yes and? You didnt accelerate any harder...

Thank you captain obveous.

That is where your wrong. Higher RPM means you gear things lower.
Think about what you said. So if I add headers and exhaust to my car, Im making more HP, so I should gear it lower now?

I meant torque, but Ive seen many peak hp curves last over 1000Rpms, the torque curve just has to drop.

... dude wheel torque isn't what wins races, all the torque in the world isnt going to help you if you dont have any power. horsepower is what determines max speed, and the horsepower curve will determine the gearing and thus maximum usable/attainable speed assuming all other variables constant

the engine's torque really has little effect on wheel torque due to gearing, hightower is completely right on this one, low end torque really means nothing and a fat torque curve is generally useless

[Coventrysucks]

like i already said, you only stay in each gear for 2000-3000rpm, what's the point of making 95% of peak torque at 2000rpm if you're never going to be at 2000 rpm excluding a dead start

You're not always "driving like you stole it" though, so if you are making more "steady" progress, it is useful to have a bit of torque on hand, without having to go hunting for it through the 'box.

You also don't want to be cruising along the motorway at 70mph pulling 5000rpm...

On another point;

Whilst I agree that a large capacity engine can be geared such that it gets very good gas milage (people seem to love to point out that the Courgette gets better milage than the S2000), I'm not convinced that it is such a good argument.

When you start "pressing on" in the Vette, that high milage figure is going to tumble like a mad westcountry-man chasing a cheese down a hill, whilst the smaller engine of the S2000, even when stoked, is probably going to use less fuel.

If this is right, then 4 cyls have an advantage when running hard, as the big V8 is going to run of gas sooner.

Just a thought, willing to be proven to the contrary...

[KnifeEdge_2K1]

You're not always "driving like you stole it" though, so if you are making more "steady" progress, it is useful to have a bit of torque on hand, without having to go hunting for it through the 'box.

that's part of the fun of a manual, what's the point of driving one if you dont wanna shift through the gears ?? and if you arn't "driving it like you stole it" why would you want all that torque at low rpms, it'd be so responsive to even the slightest touch of the throttle, and like i said already if you want more decent acceleration drop it down a gear

You also don't want to be cruising along the motorway at 70mph pulling 5000rpm....

no car would cruise 70mph at 5000rpm, given a 7000rpm redline that means the car has a top speed of like 100mph

[Coventrysucks]

that's part of the fun of a manual, what's the point of driving one if you dont wanna shift through the gears ??

Yeah shifting is fun and it can be rewarding to nail a sweet up/downshift and know it was you, rather than the car's electronics...

Even so, sometimes you just want to cruise along, and be able to cope with slight changes in speed - bends, inclines etc, without flapping around the box every 5 mins.

no car would cruise 70mph at 5000rpm, given a 7000rpm redline that means the car has a top speed of like 100mph

Peugeot 106 Rallye.

Does about 118 mph.

[h00t_h00t]

My car has a top speed of around 100mph and is revving somewhere between 4000 and 4500 at 70. There, thats two cars that break your "no car does this" rule.

[KnifeEdge_2K1]

My car has a top speed of around 100mph and is revving somewhere between 4000 and 4500 at 70. There, thats two cars that break your "no car does this" rule.

what car do you have ??

[Slicks]

you're also using alot more fuel then a small displacement engine

And thats where your wrong. I average 30mpg on the highway, the 2.0L S2000 gets about 26. Gearing matters A LOT more than displacement.

and as for feathering ur throttle to pass traffic at 2000rpm ... does this make you think you have a monster of a car ?? like i said, in most cases a fat torque curve is a waste, just drop down a gear and you're set to go

Set to waste more gas...

, like i said, if you destroke the engine a bit and widen the bore (to keep same displacement) then you'd have just as much usable torque, but performance at the top end would be greatly increased

In theory.

[Slicks]

... dude wheel torque isn't what wins races, all the torque in the world isnt going to help you if you dont have any power. horsepower is what determines max speed, and the horsepower curve will determine the gearing and thus maximum usable/attainable speed assuming all other variables constant

HP is just torque at a certain RPM. Like I said before, when Shelby was talking about torque winning races hes talking about the torque CURVE.
The designer (or even yourself) determine the gearing. I can throw some 4.11 gear in my rear end, and then I would have just changed the gearing.

[Slicks]

Whilst I agree that a large capacity engine can be geared such that it gets very good gas milage (people seem to love to point out that the Courgette gets better milage than the S2000), I'm not convinced that it is such a good argument.

When you start "pressing on" in the Vette, that high milage figure is going to tumble like a mad westcountry-man chasing a cheese down a hill, whilst the smaller engine of the S2000, even when stoked, is probably going to use less fuel.

If this is right, then 4 cyls have an advantage when running hard, as the big V8 is going to run of gas sooner.

Just a thought, willing to be proven to the contrary...

Maybe not as much as you think.

[Coventrysucks]

Maybe not as much as you think.

Since when is cruising at a steady 80-90 mph "pressing on"?

I'm talking B-Road thrapage here, tight roads with lots of corners requiring lots of heavy 2nd, 3rd, shifting, really working the engine - think Nordschleife if that helps, but with more twisties.

If the Vette bimbles along at 70mph at c.1500rpm, 90mph is still only c.2000rpm.

What happens when you're looning along with the engine held in the sweet spot - 4, 5k rpm?