Aspiration Types

[hightower99]

Hightower, your argument sucks. You nitpick at little irrelevant details and avoid the main discussion.

The main discussion is about NA versus FI

I still hold to my opinion that the majority of cars with over 500hp use FI because of it's many advantages over NA.

But to bring up another more prudent discussion in the same line of thought.

Car engines are getting smaller and smaller in the european market and more and more cars are being offered with a FI option. The number of model lines where the top performance variant uses FI is also increasing. Turbo/SC hybrid FI systems are reappearing. Sales of aftermarket turbo and SC systems is on the rise. I believe this is all evidence that FI is the way to go instead of increasing displacement or increasing rev limits. Even BMW has brought out a twin turbo 3L I6 (tuned to feel like a 4L) instead of making it bigger or righer revving.

There you go...

Discuss!

...

Note: I never said you couldn't get 500+hp out of a NA engine... just that using FI is better.
also I don't see the front page very often as I normally automatically log in and load the forum page. Also I am not really interested in an Enzo being reclad by Pininfarina... (still a nice car by all means I am just not interested in it) Also you will note I spend the vast majority of my time on this forum in the technical section I don't even look at other threads that often.

[jediali]

The main discussion is about NA versus FI

Note: I never said you couldn't get 500+hp out of a NA engine... just that using FI is better.
also I don't see the front page very often as I normally automatically log in and load the forum page. Also I am not really interested in an Enzo being reclad by Pininfarina... (still a nice car by all means I am just not interested in it) Also you will note I spend the vast majority of my time on this forum in the technical section I don't even look at other threads that often.

good comeback hightower. I agree with most of your points. I also think that in Europe engines have to be small efficient and powerful therefore encouraging LPT's and higher hp/L.

[Cyco]

hightower99 - Your arguments keep moving, this is what annoys others.

Is a NA 500+bhp engine hard to make or not?

Doesn't appear to be once you see how many are out there.

If forced induction is so much better then why do so many of the manufacture designed (not aftermarket tuned) engines in this category rely on NA?

[2ndclasscitizen]

OK then, N/A cars with over 500hp:

Lamborghini Murcielago (~550hp) and LP640 and Gallardo (which will most likely end up with at least 550hp within the next year or two, probably nearly 600hp by the time it runs out of production)
Ferrari Enzo (650hp) and 599 (620hp) and 550LM IIRC (~550hp) (the 430 CS will most likely hit 500hp as well)
Porsche Carrera GT (612hp)
McLaren F1 (627hp)
Pagani Zonda C12S (550) and F (602hp) and F Clubsport (640hp)
If it ever makes production, the JOSS (over 500hp)
HEAPS of Ultimas
Ascari KZ1 (520hp) and A10 (600hp from 5lt BMW Msport V8)
And I'd never thought I'd thank Slicks, but as he points out, some cheap as, easy mods to an LS7 will net you probably 80hp+ over the stock 500hp

And continuing with the tuning theme, BMW tuners are getting another 20 or 30hp out the S85 M V10, same goes for the 430 and Gallardo.

Another point worth considering when you blabber on about big hp turbos, a lot of them have cast iron blocks. A heap of Japanese engines (including the RB and 2JZ) have them, really big power LSxs will have an iron block, as do big power 'stangs. Something to keep in mind.

[jediali]

there are so many NA cars, as an engineer i would chose NA from the start, i feel FI is a later option. All the cars mentioned anove where specifically designed for NA and high performance to begin with. Hightower has good knowledge but might need to agree with people sometimes instead of continuing stretched debates.

2ndclasscitizen could of also mentioned on the vanquish S, maserati MC12 (ok an enzo!), 612 scaglietti, bristol fighter, E63 AMG,

[drakkie]

Why would you need a big engine anyway ? About 200 horsepower is more enough to power a quick sportscar One of the only brand that seems to understand is Lotus If you build a light and good car in the first place you dont need cheap tricks to make it faster But offcourse a light car is much harder to engineer....

[2ndclasscitizen]

2ndclasscitizen could of also mentioned on the vanquish S, maserati MC12 (ok an enzo!), 612 scaglietti,

bugger forgot those

bristol fighter

Yep, the Bristol, and of course the Viper it's based on. Actually, didn't Hennessy just release a stupidly powerful N/A Viper? (That'll you never actually recieve of course.)

E63 AMG

And whole long do you think it'll be before Brabus starts dropping stroker kits in those and make 600hp?

[johnnynumfiv]

Why would you need a big engine anyway ? About 200 horsepower is more enough to power a quick sportscar One of the only brand that seems to understand is Lotus If you build a light and good car in the first place you dont need cheap tricks to make it faster But offcourse a light car is much harder to engineer....

Not really, look at an mg midget, amazing engineering went into that and it was very light.

[jediali]

bugger forgot those
Yep, the Bristol, and of course the Viper it's based on. Actually, didn't Hennessy just release a stupidly powerful N/A Viper? (That'll you never actually recieve of course.)

And whole long do you think it'll be before Brabus starts dropping stroker kits in those and make 600hp?

i was waiting for someone to spot the viper-bristol relation, is it the 1000hp version recently compared to the veyron in a recent "autocar" letter you ponder? I also agree that less power can be lots of fun too.

[-What-]

Sorry if facts are getting in the way of your uneducated opinions again, but several forum members DO own these cars...

...Is a NA 500+bhp engine hard to make or not?...

Doesn't appear to be once you see how many are out there.

If forced induction is so much better then why do so many of the manufacture designed (not aftermarket tuned) engines in this category rely on NA?

Some manufacters like Ferrari are sticking to NA power because NA power seems more sophisticated, and in a $500,000 car, sophistication sells. Regardless, there are more FI 500+ hp cars than there are 500+hp NA cars.


Several forum members own these cars? More like 2 or 3...out of 39,000+. Compared to 500+hp cars that use forced induction, 500+hp NA cars are rare and expensive....key in on expensive. The P4/5 Ferrari you mentioned...how many are those exist? 1? That doesn't matter though, because it's based off the Enzo...how many Enzo's are there? Not many.

If your budget is astounding, a NA 500+hp car is capable. But...BUT...what happens past 660 hp? How many 660 hp NA cars can you name?

OK then, N/A cars with over 500hp...

Most of the cars you named share the same engine. And once again, all of those vehicles are extremely expensive, aside from the relatively cheap Corvette Z06.

I respect NA engines, but FI is the wave of the future. With the "lag" situation of turbos being nullified, you will find more and more automakers using turbos for power and torque advantages. You think someone can really top the Veyron's 1001 hp, or even the S7's 750hp without turbos and retain dependability?

Open your eyes people. Turbos are a performance "cheat". Power from waste! Super efficient! An engineer's system recycle dream!

Cry all you want but a NA engine CANNOT simulate the broad powerband of a properly tuned turbo car. CANNOT. A turbo's torque curve is almost cartoonish. It's unnatural.

A great example of the turbo advantage is the 3-Series. With 33 less horsepower than the previous M3, the new twin-turboed 335 Coupe manages to match its performance. I'm sure BMW dialed back on the gearing to stop the new Coupe from defeating the M3.

Turbo-Charging has the advantage over NA.

[Zytek_Fan]

I'll add to the list of +500 HP N/A engines
Current F1 engines
AER P32N
Judd GV5 V10
Prodrive DBR9 engine
Prodrive 550 GTS engine
Maserati MC12

[-What-]

I'll add to the list of +500 HP N/A engines
Current F1 engines
AER P32N
Judd GV5 V10
Prodrive DBR9 engine
Prodrive 550 GTS engine
Maserati MC12

Are you naming race cars? The Maserati MC12's engine has been mentioned about 3 times already: Enzo, 599, P4/5...etc..it's all the same. Race cars really shouldn't count. Should I start naming +500hp Forced Induction street cars? Who's list do you think will be bigger?

[Quiggs]

If your budget is astounding, a NA 500+hp car is capable. But...BUT...what happens past 660 hp? How many 660 hp NA cars can you name?

Keep changing the rules so you can win.

Cry all you want but a NA engine CANNOT simulate the broad powerband of a properly tuned turbo car. CANNOT. A turbo's torque curve is almost cartoonish. It's unnatural

Maybe if your turbo is the size of a KKK K03. With bigger turbines comes bigger lag. And if it's too small you're going to reach max impeller speed too early and you'll lose gains in the top end.

Turbo-Charging has the advantage over NA.

Sometimes. Not always.

[Cyco]

Some manufacters like Ferrari are sticking to NA power because NA power seems more sophisticated, and in a $500,000 car, sophistication sells.

Ferrari sells RWD, NA cars. Porsche sells 4WD variable vane geometry turbo cars. 1 sells on sophistication, and its not Ferrari.

Regardless, there are more FI 500+ hp cars than there are 500+hp NA cars.

I'm not talking aftermarket tuners and kits - this discussion is about what is best when designing with a clean sheet of paper, not what you bodge up in the backyard to gain more power out of someone else's design.

Several forum members own these cars? More like 2 or 3...out of 39,000+

Based on the number of these cars sold as a percentage of total car sales you are correct - they are over represented here.

Compared to 500+hp cars that use forced induction, 500+hp NA cars are rare and expensive....key in on expensive.

I didn't realise Koneigseggs and Bugattis where that much cheaper.

If your budget is astounding, a NA 500+hp car is capable. But...BUT...what happens past 660 hp? How many 660 hp NA cars can you name?

McLaren F1 LM, with research I'm sure I could find more.

Most of the cars you named share the same engine.

19 cars
15 engines

Your maths abilities are strong.

I respect NA engines, but FI is the wave of the future. With the "lag" situation of turbos being nullified, you will find more and more automakers using turbos for power and torque advantages. You think someone can really top the Veyron's 1001 hp, or even the S7's 750hp without turbos and retain dependability?

Havn't seen many reports of the S7, but almost all of the Veyron mention noticeable lag, and on what should be the worlds most developed engine.

Cry all you want but a NA engine CANNOT simulate the broad powerband of a properly tuned turbo car. CANNOT. A turbo's torque curve is almost cartoonish. It's unnatural

Why can't it? If a turbo's torque curve is unnatural do you mean that it doesn't exist, or that its a purely human creation - like say the torque curve of a NA internal combustion engine?

A great example of the turbo advantage is the 3-Series. With 33 less horsepower than the previous M3, the new twin-turboed 335 Coupe manages to match its performance.

So it takes 2 turbos and 6 years of chassis development to make up for a loss of 600cc of NA engine..... wow, I want a turbo so much now......

I'm sure BMW dialed back on the gearing to stop the new Coupe from defeating the M3.

With a new M3 coming out next year I'm sure they didn't - nothing would be better to push current M3 owners to upgrade then being beaten by a "lesser" model.

[Quiggs]

<Cyco's whole post>

zomg teh pwnag3 is astounding!!11!111!1!eleven