What about the Wankel Engine??

[Matra et Alpine]

Well to redress the balance in case anyone thinks I hate Wankels

Here's an interesting list of Le Mans entries I found at http://www.millville.org/workshops_F...ls/lemans.html

RCE Entries at Le Mans
Yr Qu Fin

70 41 -- Chevron B16, Mazda 10A 2rotor 200 bhp
73 14 -- Sigma MC73, Mazda 12A 2rotor 260 bhp 9K rpm, Ikusawa, Fushida & Dal Bo
74 27 un Sigma MC74, Mazda 12A, 1st Japan chqd flag. Terada, Okamoto, Harukuni
74 -- -- Mazda S124A coupe, 12A 2rotor 260 bhp
75 50 -- Mazda S124A coupe, 12A 2rotor 260 bhp, Buchet & Rondeau
79 -- -- Mazda RX-7 252i, 13B 2rotor 285 bhp, 0.59 sec out of qualification
80 54 21 Mazda RX-7, 12A 2rotor, Soto, Hutchins & Honneger
81 -- -- Mazda RX-7, 12A 2rotor. Vermeersch, Stiff & Honneger
81 49 -- Mazda RX-7 253, 13B 2rotor. Terada, Fushida & Percy
81 51 -- Mazda RX-7 253, 13B 2rotor. Walkinshaw, Lovett & Izukawa
82 50 14 Mazda RX-7 254, 13B 2rotor. Terada, Yorino & Moffat
82 53 -- Mazda RX-7 254, 13B 2rotor. Walkinshaw, Lovett & Nicholson
83 43 12 Mazda 717C, 13B, Terada, Katayama & Yorino. Won C Jr
83 42 18 Mazda 717C, 13B 2 rotor, Allam, Weaver & Soper
83 -- -- Harrier, 13B 2 rotor. Baker, Honneger & Palmer.
84 42 15 Mazda 727C, 13B 2rotor, 320 bhp. Kennedy, Martin & Martin
84 32 20 Mazda 727C, 13B 2rotor, 320 bhp. Terada, Yorino & Dieudonne
84 39 12 Lola T616, 13B 2rotor, Busby, Knoop & Hayje
84 38 10 Lola T616, 13B 2rotor, Katayama, Morton & O'Steen. Won C2
85 40 24 Mazda 737C, 13B 2rotor, Katayam, Terada & Yorino
85 43 19 Mazda 737C, 13B 2rotor, Kennedy, Martin & Martin
86 25 -- Mazda 757, 13G 3rotor, 3532cc (654x3x1.8), Katayama, Terada & Yorino
86 29 -- Mazda 757, 13G 3rotor, Kennedy, Galvin & Dieudonne.
87 28 7 Mazda 757, 13G, Kennedy, Dieudonne & Galvin. (best Japan yet) Won GTP
87 27 -- Mazda 757, 13G, Katayam, Terada, Yorino, 18 hours
88 37 15 Mazda 757, 13G 3rotor, Terada, Dieudonne & Kennedy. Won GTP
88 29 17 Mazda 767, 13J 4rotor, 550-600 bhp, Katayama, Duez & Leslie
88 28 19 Mazda 767, 13J 4rotor, Yorino, Regout & Hoy
89 28 7 Mazda 767B, 13J 4rotor, Kennedy, Dieudonne & Hodgetts. Won GTP
89 16 9 Mazda 767B, 13J 4rotor, Yorino, Regout & Forbes-Robinson
89 34 12 Mazda 767, 13J 4rotor, Terada, Duez, Weidler
90 23 -- Mazda 787, R26B 4rotor, Johansson, Kennedy & Dieudonne
90 22 -- Mazda 787, R26B 4rotor, Gachot, Herbert & Weidler
90 34 20 Mazda 767B, 13J 4rotor, Katayama, Terada & Yorino. Won GTP
91 12 6 Mazda 787B, R26B 4rotor, Kennedy, Johansson & Sandro-Sala.
91 17 1 Mazda 787B, R26B 4rotor, Gachot, Herbert & Weidler, OVERALL WINNER
91 24 8 Mazda 787, R26B 4rotor, Terada, Dieudonne & Yorino.
96 24 25 Kudzu MazdaSpeed, Terada, Downing, Freon.
97 17 17 MazdaSpeed 97, Terada, Downing, Freon.

Mazda is the most reliable finisher: 67 % of the times it has entered (31 cars)), the highest reliability of any maker, except Honda, who entered only one year (3 cars) and all 3 finished. The next closest was D.B. (?) (France) at 55 %.


Of course, it's still the case that 'equivalency' makes a mockery of comparisons on power AND longevity. The 1991 car was a 2.6l 4-rotor. Hard to compette with that amount of 'bang' in a V8/12.
But that's life - go ask a GSX-R racer in World Superbikes

[davidpnut]

Yup.

Interesting idea that; not practical, but interesting nonetheless.

Think about the Honda Civic Hyrid or the Toyota Prius. They have assists, which are very helpful. Plus, you can get energy back when you break. Putting an electrical assist on the Wankel would be awesome.

[Matra et Alpine]

Putting an electrical assist on the Wankel would be awesome.

Even better, on a Stirling engine.
The electrics could cover the long start-up time
Stirling cycles are THE msot efficient engine made.
( Another scottish invention before it's time !! )

[fpv_gtho]

whats the sterling engine?

[Egg Nog]

whats the sterling engine?

The Sterling External Combustion Engine, as described by Road and Track to the best of my memory:
Advantages: Low noise, low emissions, high efficiency
Disadvantages: The existance of other engines

"The modern Stirling Engine is a clean and efficient engine. This is because the heat fueling the device is supplied from outside the engine. Thus creation of pollutants can be eliminated. The external combustion aspect enables a Stirling Engine to operate equally well on multiple types of fuel, such as natural gas, propane, gasoline, diesel, bio-fuels, or even heat from the sun. "

(From SESUSA)
http://www.sesusa.org/

Another good site here:
http://www.bekkoame.ne.jp/~khirata/

Two really good animations:
http://www.keveney.com/Vstirling.html
http://www.keveney.com/Stirling.html

The always-excellent HowStuffWorks article:
http://www.howstuffworks.com/stirling-engine.htm

Japan's "Sterling Techno Rally"
http://www.nef.or.jp/english/info/lupo8e.htm

A good Sterling Engine History:
http://www.cse.iitk.ac.in/~amit/cour...ishe/main.html

And finally, and image: This is pretty interesting (at least for fellow physics fans): From a small MIT-designed Sterling Engine, this is the graph of Work -vs- ΔTemperature...

[fpv_gtho]

thanks for that Egg Nog

[Matra et Alpine]

whats the sterling engine?

STIRLING.
Invented by a Reverend Stilrling a Scottish Church of Scotland Minister
HONEST !!!
He was fed up with parishioners being kiled and maimed when early steam engine boilers would blow up. So decided to invent a better engine.
It's an amazing machine to watch - especially modern low-temparature-difference engines
It's best where you don't mind it taking time for an engine to get up to speed and can take advantage of it's constant working speed.
A web site will find you lots of info.
There's a perticular US company who product Stirling engines and make small ones. I've seen the 'coffee cup powered' one and it's amazing to watch if.
One of the big US companies built a car with an engine as a 'test', don't know what happened to it or other car research.

[Doza]

The Sterling External Combustion Engine, as described by Road and Track to the best of my memory:
Advantages: Low noise, low emissions, high efficiency
Disadvantages: The existance of other engines

What kind of power does it make?

[Egg Nog]

What kind of power does it make?

Well, Sterling Engines can very in size quite highly, so I can't really give an exact figure... I made one at home from some wood, some elastics, a tin can, and a couple of other things. Probably not quite in Bugatti Veyron territory yet

Anyway, I think one of the disadvantages is it's relatively low power output for the size of the engine. Many issues have been dealt with, but I don't really think this is very possible considering the relative simplicity and efficiency of the engine, and how it functions.

[Matra et Alpine]

I think one of the disadvantages is it's relatively low power output for the size of the engine.

Stirling folks, STIRLING - I can hear him spining from here

Anyway, the Stirling engine power is related to the temparature differential between the two ends of the engine. THIS is the limiting factor. Quite powerful multi-cylinder engines have been built. But we're not talking more than a handful of HP !! Some research subs have used Stirling engines - infinite 'sink' of cold sea for the engine guess you can keep the hot end in a nuc reactor !! Don't know how practical they really are.

[Egg Nog]

Stirling folks, STIRLING - I can hear him spining from here

Oh man, my bad Sorry, I must've missed that before.

My apologies go out (or should I say under) to Rev. Stirling.

[crash8168]

Anyone has something to tell about the Wankel Engine???

something in favour, or against...

I think it is a good engine...

Most of the time seal damage was due to incorrect spark plugs installed in the engine.

[rxheaven]

The one thing i have not seen yet in this thread is a post from someone that actually drives an rx7 or the like. I can kill all questions about reliability. I drive an 82 rx7. It has never been rebuilt and still has the original motor (12A). this motor has done over 210000km in that time the only reason it needs any work done at all is that an oil o-ring has hardened when the engine was not run for a few years. The main reasons for problems with this type of motor is one of 2 things. Most of the time it is due to stupid young drivers that rev the car way to much my engine redlines at 7000rpm it will keep reving until there is no more fuel or something goes bang. The other reason is alot of people do port jobs to the motor. These do produce more power but like any modification put more strain on the motor. Poor port jobs or just ports that are to big eg. J ports (if you realy want to know look it up) put strain on the apex seals. Now as for pistons I am nowhere near as well informed on there problems, but most of my mates run heigh performance motors and they spend a hell of a lot of time fixing there worked cars. As a side note the year mazda won lemans they actualy striped the motor in public to prove the reliability. That race is all about not breaking the car and well the powers that be have done what every other person has done with this type of motor, they baned it. This is the main reason there has been no R&D into the motor. I sell cars for a living there is a saying "race it on sunday sell it on monday" if you can't race it it is hard to sell it, if it is hard to sell there is no money for R&D.

I may have covered a few points previously mentioned but i feel better for the effort.

[Mustang]

well since i dont know alot about the wankel engine accept that it doesnt have pistons i thaught i might as well just post this pic from the motorshow

[megotmea7]

The one thing i have not seen yet in this thread is a post from someone that actually drives an rx7 or the like. I can kill all questions about reliability. I drive an 82 rx7. It has never been rebuilt and still has the original motor (12A). this motor has done over 210000km in that time the only reason it needs any work done at all is that an oil o-ring has hardened when the engine was not run for a few years. The main reasons for problems with this type of motor is one of 2 things. Most of the time it is due to stupid young drivers that rev the car way to much my engine redlines at 7000rpm it will keep reving until there is no more fuel or something goes bang. The other reason is alot of people do port jobs to the motor. These do produce more power but like any modification put more strain on the motor. Poor port jobs or just ports that are to big eg. J ports (if you realy want to know look it up) put strain on the apex seals.

i have a '94 FD touring, the motor decided to go last year at about 110k miles(water seal ruptured leaking coolant into the housing and bubbling off into the radiator, most likely do to my impatience and unwillingness to do a full 10 minute warm up when i was late for work . this was with a T04X, full exhaust, PFC, and 414hp @12psi) i have yet to take the old motor apart to se but i suspect a warped housing also but hey it still ran when i took it out took some pushing to get it started and alot of white smoke but it ran , currently putting a streetported 13b-REW in with ceramic seals and hoping to push upwards of 500hp, i dont know about your SA but most common killers of FC's and FD's is the inpropper warm up and cool down that these motors require before and after hard driving, when modifying you have to increase fuel flow as well as airflow(probly the #1 killer of FD's), unreliability/insuficientness of the cooling system and imporper design of the downpipe/precat which both cause overheatig which will kill your rotary real quick, and imporoperly secured vacuum lines which pop off and cause the entire sequential switchover to cease to exist till you dig thru the hunders of lines to find the one that came off(pain in the ass...) the thing about the SA's and the 12a is it burned fuel like none other(not a flaw but designed in to lubricate the seals, its designed into every modern rotary to date) had horrible gas mileage, and some just gave up not 50k miles after running.