Furniture
Does anyone have any information about this series or it's cars? I have scowled the internet and found nothing about them. I saw it on SPEED a few weeks ago and the announcer said they were 800 odd hp cars. There were a bunch of different classes too. The cars are bodied like Camaros, or Corvettes, or XKRs and other crap like that. It was pretty interesting to see. I was wondering mainly what sort of engines they were using.
Cheers.
Fanatic
I think you mean 'scoured'.Originally Posted by Kitdy
No idea, though perhaps the font of all knowledge can help. Or the official website. With the rules and such.
Furniture
I did mean scoured, hah. I also am pretty sure I already checked all those websites pimento, but thanks for the help anyways.I think you mean 'scoured'.
No idea, though perhaps the font of all knowledge can help. Or the official website. With the rules and such.
Novice
SCCA classes are different now from what they were 35 years ago when I was active. But let me try this:
There are (or were) 4 categories of cars. formula cars (open wheels) classes by engine displacement, sports racing cars (purpose built race cars, not open wheels, or overly modified/not listed production-based cars (like a Lola or Sprite with an Alfa engine) also roughly classed by engine size. We used to have a Sedan class. I think they've been merged with the production or some other category now. Production cars are production based but the modifications can be extensive, classed based on performance potential if altered to the full extent of the rules.
Thus you see MGAs racing 240SX and a Sprite wearing Mini bodywork (i.e. rear engine) racing other hybrid things in one of the GT classes (I think these replaced the Sedan classes).
SCCAs web site seems to have no direct link to WTF their class structure is. (scca.com)
Novice
try this link...it's a long one
ttp://www.na-motorsports.com/Organizations/SCCA/Racing/Rules.html#ClubRacing
Furniture
Thanks a lot mac townsend, it appears as though the GT class is the one I was looking for - I maybe.
How did you find this info?
Fanatic
You need to read more American car magazines, Kitdy.
Note: I am not trying to say America is the all-knowing, omnipresent God who brings civility to "barbarians" around the world. All I'm trying to say is that the answer to a Sports Car of America race is in American car magazines! Brilliant!
I'm dropping out to create a company that starts with motorcycles, then cars, and forty years later signs a legendary Brazilian driver who has a public and expensive feud with his French teammate.
Furniture
I just let my subscription to road and track lapse as I was not happy with it's articles and I can always read them online a month later and save myself some money.You need to read more American car magazines, Kitdy.
Note: I am not trying to say America is the all-knowing, omnipresent God who brings civility to "barbarians" around the world. All I'm trying to say is that the answer to a Sports Car of America race is in American car magazines! Brilliant!
This racing series though is pretty obscure and only shown on SPEED at the wee hours of the morning, I am not sure if any major American car magazine carries any info on it.
Anyways, it looks like it's the GT or Trans-Am series/class for the thing I was looking for. SPEED just calls it the SCCA Runoffs.
Fanatic
The cars you saw I believe are in the GT-1 class, which is the highest class in their closebody "GT" car. These are essentially the same car as what Trans-Am runs, which are basically tube-frame, V8 powered car with production car looking body.
SCCA Runoff is an annual event where ALL SCCA road racing classes come together for their individual championships to be decided. Speed only shows these during off-season as these are not pro-racers, most are run in their own time on their own budget, thus commercially not viable to compete with big series' TV time in racing season. They usually break off each classes into an hour show for their races....
University of Toronto Formula SAE Alumni 2003-2007
Formula Student Championship 2003, 2005, 2006
www.fsae.utoronto.ca
Furniture
All right, cool. Thanks for the solid info RacingManiac.
Enthusiast
The SCCA used to be the starting place for non-oval racing in the US. In the old days the top US drivers would start by mixing it up in the amateur ranks of the SCCA. I miss those days as I used to be a track rat when I was young. For those who don't know, a track rat is the child of one of the people at the track (racer, vendor, manufacture etc). The Runoffs were effectively the national amateur championships in the US. A Runoffs win could put you well on the way to a paying ride in the majors. It was a truly prestigious event to win. Heck, it was an honor to be invited.
That was then.
Regrettably through mismanagement the club isn't what it used to be. Now it's entirely possible to make it up the racing ladder in the US (which isn't a very good road racing ladder anyway) without ever dealing with the SCCA. Regrettably the SCCA seems to have become a place for older racers to talk about the good old days rather than a place for new racers.
The entry level classes and prices are rather steep for young drivers. At the higher levels SCCA has to compete with one make series such as the Pro Mazda, and BMW cars. Many of the wealthy arrive and drive hobbiest who help bring money into the sport (and provide a source of used cars) would rather play with the "cooler" cars offered by non-SCCA clubs. They would also rather have a guaranteed field of similar speed cars rather than an SCCA catch all field filled with open wheel cars of different speeds, and fendered cars.
All of this results in the US having a poor training ground for open wheel racers trying to make it to the top of the racing world. If you want to know why the US isn't fielding many F1 want to be's just look at the "schools" where those drivers would train. They simply aren't as good as the ones in Europe.
Sorry, that's my SCCA diatribe.
Enthusiast
BTW, I was talking about the Runoffs as a stepping stone for the big leagues. Here's Michael Andretti running in the '81 Runoffs. I know the guy who won the race and the designer of his car. I have a lot of respect for both. (BTW, the winner wasn't Andretti).
Mark Windecker : photos : 1981 RUNOFFS@ROAD ATLANTA- powered by SmugMug
If it doesn't come up, the picture in question is #57. Also if you look through the pictures you will see some old Can Am cars and other big bore toys that used to run in SCCA.
Fanatic
So.. do you have a SCCA license? What do you have to do to get one? I found a newspaper for the NorCal region and it sounds pretty darned expensive. Oh well. I guess there's the autocross alternative.
I'm dropping out to create a company that starts with motorcycles, then cars, and forty years later signs a legendary Brazilian driver who has a public and expensive feud with his French teammate.
Enthusiast
I don't as I've never had enough money where I felt that I could "comfortably afford" a racecar (open wheel). I could be wrong about the details and SCCA.org would be the right place to check (or the SCCA forums). There are I believe two levels of license. You start with a regional license and then after some experience you can get a national license.
Sadly it is expensive. The guy who built the car that won the FF class that year (the car that was green on one side and orange on the other) said one of the big problems is cost escalation. When he started in the business, the cost of a Formula Vee (entry level class) was about 1/4 of the US average annual income (family income I think). Today that car would be 1/2 the average. A Formula Ford was about 1/2 the average and is now about 100% of the average. Many of the other costs have also gone up. When he started most cars were towed on open trailers and could be towed behind the average family sedan (got to love those old full size cars). The closed trailers don't really cost much more and are really nice to have. However, the average family car can no longer haul the trailer. Well unless your average family sedan is a larger SUV. I'm also under the impression that the entry fees have grown quite a bit over the years.
What this all really means is it's much harder for the hobbyist of reasonable means to get into racing in SCCA. Even worse is trying to get into a good class like FF. The Fords used to be the open wheel class. You would often have two heats just to make the race. It was also the class because the hobbyist could actually afford to get to that level and the future pros would have to prove themselves at that level before moving on. The cars weren't so powerful that you could just muscle them around the track but at the same time they were very, very quick compared to a street car.
A driver I know was running at a track day with some Porsche club guys (not common to have an open wheel FF next to the likes of a street 911T). In any case, the 911T was actually faster on the straights. As light as the FF is, 116hp vs 400+ and higher drag means the top speed is lower. However, the FF was so fast around the corners the 911 could never catch up.
Here's a R&T review of a Swift DB-1 circa '84. This car pretty much made obsolete all the FF's prior to '84. Personally, although it was "the bad guy" when I was a kid, it really is a nice looking car IMHO.
New Page 1
The car run by the owner of that site is a Citation which is the brand I grew up around.
Cmore Racing
Unfortunately FF is not what it used to be. The motors and gear boxes are now beyond obsolete and actually rather expensive. The gearboxes are old Hewland and other brands and are now quite expensive. Sadly that is one of the aspects that kills the class as an entry level class. It also doesn't help that the cars don't have wings. Not that wings are actually needed to improve the driver's skills but lets face it, car people like techie stuff. We like to think we are driving mini-F1 cars. Well that means we need wings. Of course wings just get beat up and don't teach us the fundamentals of driving but if I'm a wealthy hobbyist I as likely to want cool as anything else. I'm "too old" to bother with the stepping stone classes.
The entry level FV which just might be affordable to a young, self funded driver also has problems. The FV is based heavily on VW bug parts. That was great when there were lots of bugs around. The front and rear suspension, the brakes and the whole drive line are bug based. Alas, bug parts are no longer as common. The low cost parts don't have the quality of the old German made parts. They may be fine for my street bug but the FV's really could be hard on hubs and brake drums. The motors and gearboxes are also no longer salvage yard parts. Even if they are relatively inexpensive, bone yard is cheap compared to new.
Finally, they just aren't cool. Sadly, some of the best attributes of the Vee are also it's worst. The low power (~46hp) 1.2L VW motor was a great training tool because it taught driver's to conserve momentum. Those lessons in conservation of momentum were valuable all the way up to the top classes in racing. Drivers who mastered a Vee almost always did well as they moved up.
But in 2008 are you going to lust after a 42hp race car? Come on now! A Honda Accord V6 can out run the little thing (but not out corner). Also, what's up with the trailing arm front suspension and swing arms in the back? Actually, the fact that all cars were stuck with the same parts was good in some ways. That actually meant that no matter how much better the new chassis may be, they are still stuck with the same bad parts. That helped prevent the problems associated with the "next hot car". Ironically enough it also meant that the Vee's could use "zero roll stiffness" rear ends. Not only did they not have anti-roll at the back, many had mono-shocks so the rear axles could roll freely. Some even used "Z" bars. If you look at the 550 Sypder replicas you will see a Z-bar from time to time (oddly enough both cars are made from about the same parts). It's the opposite of a traditional roll bar. It makes it removes stiffness in roll while promoting stiffness in bump. Talk about non-traditional.
But, no mater how good they are at teaching racing fundamentals, no mater how good the actual competition, the cars don't look cool and cool helps sell these cars. At least cool is what gets people to look at a class. After that, winning helps them sell. FV just doesn't look cool. The technology isn't cool. And they aren't so cheep that we forgive the lack of cool. If I'm putting down $25k on a new race car I want it to be cool.
So that's my continuing diatribe on SCCA and the state of entry level race cars in the US. Sorry to ramble but hopefully it was at least somewhat interesting to read.
Enthusiast
Old thread but for anyone who would like to watch the 2009 or 2010 runoffs coverage:
SpeedcastTV
Only some of the 2010 races are up. The rest will be up before the month is out.
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