Australian car industry bailout

[SlickHolden]

AN auto industry bailout plan worth $6b has been welcomed as the possible saviour of thousands of jobs as well as good news for car buyers..

More here.... Unions, RACV welcome Government&squo;s $6bn car industry bailout | Herald Sun

Key points here..... Key points of car industry bailout | Herald Sun

[henk4]

Interesting, by calling it a "new plan for a greener future" one of the conditions of the bail-out seems to be that the Government determines the direction of the future production....less gas guzzlers, etc...

[AERO_HDT]

In one way I'm glad to see it happening, on the other hand it irks me. The writing was on the wall years ago and Holden and Ford are still reliant on Falcodores. Six BILLION dollars is a LOT of money for the car industry, especially as it would appear that the REAL chiefs in Detroit couldn't be stuffed.

The six billion dollars goes directly to them. And once the money well has dried up, they'll stick their hands out for another six billion bucks. And the minute the Australian Government turns around and tells GM and FordMoCo "NO", the companies will pull the plugs on local operation.

[IBrake4Rainbows]

The Rudd Government is very Eco-minded in a lot of their policy making, but having to balance that with the recent Global economic crisis is going to be an act too tough to deal with, I think.

Mostly because Green energy & transport, like it or lump it, means the consumer is charged more. and thats never good for a government when they are seen to be the proponants of something which has no visible short term gain in most voters minds.

As for this bailout package? well, Toyota specifically have been the beneficiary of government handouts so that they can build the Camry Hybrid in Australia, why not Ford/Holden?

My only concern is that Ford/Holden don't use the money to send back to their masters in Detroit for some quick cash flow - something I presume has been stipulated.....But if Holden, for instance, became the Green-Wing of the GM empire, it could not necessarily be a bad thing.

a Hybrid Commodore? why not. they tried something similar back in 2000, IIRC with the ECommodore project.

[LeonOfTheDead]

I don't know if giving money to manufacturers which are struggling for their own errors is the right way to help the workers who could lose their jobs. instead, let those factories die, give a part of the money to the workers to help them in the short-term period, and and help them finding a new job in some way. very idealistic, I know.

[IBrake4Rainbows]

It's not particularly a bad idea - retraining them for a different industry is not a bad way for the money to be spent.

the problem is whether or not those workers who are retrained will be able to find new jobs, or just stay on state welfare.

Furthermore, the long term benefits of retraining & creating new industries are offset by the short-term political benefit of being seen to keep manufacturing & jobs in Australia, despite the economic reality.

[SlickHolden]

As long as the money stays within this country's car industry. I'm all for it.

Some help for our ailing suppliers will be welcomed, But some might say it's long overdue.

IB... Are you saying Rudds idea's are for future impact rather then the now which will be seen and grab votes ?.


I would have liked to see a 500 million investment into all 3 car makers to build hybrids alternative fuel cars. That way they all get the same slice to do the same thing. To ask them to be the first hands Toyota money they don't need to work hard for. Now for holden/ford to invest in hybrids their development cost and testing would be higher and much longer. Toyota doesn't need to do much as their hybrid cars are built overseas already.
It's like giving 3 people the chance to be the first to loose 10kg.. 1: is 200kg and the other 2 are 20kg anorexics. I don't mind Toyota getting a slice of money as they have been wonderful to Australia over the years. Just ford/holden need it more.

[IBrake4Rainbows]

IB... Are you saying Rudds idea's are for future impact rather then the now which will be seen and grab votes ?

My thoughts on a lot of the Policies of the Rudd Government in regards to climate change are two fold.

Firstly, I'm a skeptic of Climate change anyway, so when I see them comitting to energy plans that aren't that much better for the environment than the status quo, but the Public will end up paying, in some cases, 20% more for their energy, as hardly either a vote winner or a smart idea.

Secondly, My concern is that Australia, while we might end up Greener, will be left behind in the manufacturing & heavy industry stakes, and this money the government is pumping into car manufacturers will be in vain, because Australia, with it's high cost of energy, will be seen as an uninviting place to invest.

The Green car plan is again a little bit of a red herring for me - IMO the money should be spent on getting a better infrastructure in place for the next great fuel source - whether thats plug-in electric vehicles, Hydrogen powered or Bio-Fueled vehicles. Hybrids, in the current state of technology at least, aren't as good for the environment as the Manufacturer's would like you to believe.

Holden and Ford should take a leaf from BMW's book and focus on engine efficiency - making the best of whats already there.

[Tall_G]

Holden and Ford should take a leaf from BMW's book and focus on engine efficiency - making the best of whats already there.

Right on! Shifting to 5- or 6-speed autos in recent years has helped but fundimentally these cars are inefficient. Almost a Catch-22 for Ford & Holden as the public demand hi-po cars, (and elsewhere on these pages you'll find plenty of partisan banter about who 's got and extra 5kw or 0.5 sec's to 100km/h), and these two try to upstage each other to satisfy that demand.

GM have vast experience in cylinder deactivation with their pushrod engines, dunno how difficult it would be to adapt to the staple V6. What about offering the V6 in a smaller capacity for base models (3.2's are produced alongside the 3.6 already)? No, not a repeat of the 4 cylinder Commodores of the 80's, which were almost dangerously underpowered and worked the engines too hard.
Ford's old slugger does a bloody good job for an anchor, but is due for replacement with a US sourced V6 anyway.

Falcodores biggest blight is weight, which because of the market segment I believe can only be addressed by a reduction in dimensions. Exotic materials are great but cost prohibitive, so no BMW-style aluminium suspension components.

I think Rudd is right to try and keep the Aussie car industry alive. Remember it's not just the car builders but also component suppliers who's workers are at stake. And Holden is an exporter (I know all 3 export to NZ but the numbers are insignificant). Plus they are a symbol of national pride, and Ford and Holden are culturally important. Just have to make sure the paymasters in Detroit don't spot an opportunity for shoring up their own flagging fortunes.

[SlickHolden]

I'm sold on it. More as i watch the news and hear the experts claim it's cooling. Yet temperatures rise and warnings of higher heat keep coming up. Then we get a 7 day forecast that to be honest they can't even get right anymore, It's becoming a guess the unpredictability of our weather. Today the weather guy had a chuckle at how many he got wrong last week.
Melbourne cup day was a joke. We had a little get together and played some soccer. We all came in jumpers jackets no hats etc. Well 1 hour in the park and guess who was a pander!.

My last look into the Emissions scheme was i personally might not see this increase at all - Easyway is wonderful absorbing increases. But over time it seems to be cheaper then first thought.

Green cars.. I'm not sure i like hybrids at all, Well i don't. I think it's a real waste of time short term and long term. But if that floats anyones boat fair enough.

I'd like to see Holden/Ford go ethanol-LPG-Diesel. Fuel efficient alternative and good for the environment and best of all price competitive against hybrids.
If they both shove a hybrid in their cars well ok. But i won't be turning up in one for the great weekends.

[Tall_G]

I'd like to see Holden/Ford go ethanol-LPG-Diesel. Fuel efficient alternative and good for the environment and best of all price competitive against hybrids.
If they both shove a hybrid in their cars well ok. But I won't be turning up in one for the great weekends.

Love the thought of a diesel Falcon or Commodore. Both manufacturers have modern low-sulphur V6 versions available in their global parts bins. Ford might wait until they've configured their engine bay for the V6 petrol first (unless the next Falcon becomes a re-badged Mondeo...).
I'm not sold on hybrids either. Most of their economy seems derived from stop-start deactivation in city conditions. Why not just develop stop-start for the petrol engines as per BMW?
LPG is available and not expensive, but not as efficient or green as most would believe.

[LeonOfTheDead]

Love the thought of a diesel Falcon or Commodore. Both manufacturers have modern low-sulphur V6 versions available in their global parts bins. Ford might wait until they've configured their engine bay for the V6 petrol first (unless the next Falcon becomes a re-badged Mondeo...).
I'm not sold on hybrids either. Most of their economy seems derived from stop-start deactivation in city conditions. Why not just develop stop-start for the petrol engines as per BMW?
LPG is available and not expensive, but not as efficient or green as most would believe.

LPG here had been used for decades with excellent results. even if the performance delivered by the engine are inferior, the mileage is drastically improved, and emissions tests demonstrated is "green" too. Methane is even more efficient, but it costs slightly more than LPG (GPL here), both to adopt and as a fuel.

proper hybrid aren't just based on start-stop systems or kers-relate systems. here the only hybrid available right now are the Prius, the Lexus GS/LS/RX and the Civic. then you have the EfficientDynamics from BMW, and start-stop systems in many other cars.
the good thing about hybrids is that, even if maybe (never read reliable facts) they are overall as pollutants as other cars considering the whole life of the batteries too, they pollute less while driving. this is very important since you are going to breath cleaner air. then even if a battery is very dangerous for our health, it is something stocked, not breathable, you cant touch directly its acids without braking it in some way, so it's a "better" form of pollution and more tractable. once you have released COx, NOx or particulate in the air, you can't remove then. the batteries can be stocked waiting to be recycled in some way (as far it regards me, you can send all of them once a month on the Sun and let them burn).
the point is: with hybrids the air is cleaner, and it's a damn thing to clean once you have polluted it.

finally, never heard of the mentioned vast experience GM has with cylinder deactivation, any examples?

[Ferrer]

finally, never heard of the mentioned vast experience GM has with cylinder deactivation, any examples?

Camaro and G8 have cyilinder deactivation in their V8 versions.

[clutch-monkey]

Camaro and G8 have cyilinder deactivation in their V8 versions.

makes sweet f*ck all difference though. the commodore doesn't have it (in favour of retaining a manual) but the G8 does; the difference is 1 MPG. i don't know if that changes in real world tests but yeah...
+1 for a decent diesel

[fpv_gtho]

I'm a bit skeptical. Its money that the manufacturers will need, but everything Rudd's done so far has pretty much been to Toyota's benefit and not really Holden and Fords. Other governments have been the same as well, like the QLD government amending their fleet criteria to single out the Aurion as the only allowed 6cyl based on CO2 emissions and fuel economy.