Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 34

Thread: GM failure: The Shockwave

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    NEW YORK
    Posts
    6,985

    GM failure: The Shockwave

    After hearing today that the CEO's as well as the head of the UAW are under harsh interrogations by lawmakers I thought this would be appropriate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Money.com
    GM failure: The shockwave

    If General Motors declares bankruptcy, industry watchers say, the entire domestic auto industry could be badly hurt.

    By Peter Valdes-Dapena, CNNMoney.com senior writer
    Last Updated: November 14, 2008: 12:36 PM ET
    NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- If General Motors really does run out of money by the end of the year, as it predicted was possible, the impact would be felt far and wide - to hundreds of suppliers, rival automakers and ultimately dealers across the nation.

    "Once the first domino falls, it rapidly takes out all the other dominoes," said Dennis Virag, president of the Automotive Consulting Group.
    Suppliers would be among the first to feel those effects since GM only manufactures the body, the engine and the transmission used in its cars.
    In the United States alone, GM spends $31 billion on parts from 2,100 different suppliers. These include the "direct suppliers" involved in producing a vehicle - those that provide everything from steering wheels and seatbelts to brakes and airbags - as well as "indirect suppliers" - those that make things such as gloves, protective eyewear, shop rags and lightbulbs.

    Although lawmakers appear to be souring on providing a $25 billion bailout to automakers, the impact of a GM failure on the industry as a whole - and therefore the economy as a whole - is weighing heavily in their decisions.
    So far this year, 23 major auto-related companies, most of them parts suppliers, have filed for bankruptcy, according to consulting firm Grant Thornton. They are struggling since car makers have cut back as sales have slowed and raw-material prices have risen.

    "I would argue that in today's environment, with the stress that's already on the supply base, they can't take another hit," said Kimberly Rodriguez, a principal at Grant Thornton's automotive practice. "The ripple effect would be huge," she added.

    Impact on rival car makers
    As supplier companies fail, that would have a direct impact on Ford and Chrysler, since the three domestic auto manufacturers share about 70% of their suppliers, Rodriguez estimated.

    One executive who works for a Detroit automaker, and who did not want to be named, said the impact of GM - or any of the three - failing would be dramatic and very challenging.
    Not all those affected would suffer equally, but it is hard to predict which companies would be hit hardest, because the relationships among the various suppliers and automakers are complex, he said.
    Impact on dealers

    A GM failure would also affect about 14,000 dealers in the United States, according to the industry newspaper Automotive News. That is almost half of the nation's 29,000 dealerships that specialize in domestic vehicles.
    But even if those 14,000 GM dealers also offer foreign cars, the risk of losing their supply of domestic vehicles could force many of them out of business, said Paul Taylor, an economist with the National Automobile Dealers Association. Already, he noted, the industry is expected to lose about 700 dealers by the end of this year, up to 80% of which will be domestic-brand stores.

    Car companies are wary of publicly discussing the possibility of financial disaster because it makes it harder to sell the cars that are on dealer lots today, said consultant Virag. Customers don't want to buy from a company they fear may soon be insolvent.

    "It's a difficult situation that the automakers are in," said Virag. "To talk about bankruptcy would only exacerbate the situation, but not talking about it isn't helping."

    But whether a bankruptcy would help suppliers and everyone dependent upon GM is still uncertain.

    If it is determined that GM could file for bankruptcy under Chapter 11 rules, rather than a Chapter 7 liquidation, the automaker could potentially reorganize. That way the company could seek permission to pay outstanding bills to "critical suppliers" that it absolutely needs, said Robert Sanker, a Cleveland bankruptcy attorney who has represented creditors of bankrupt auto suppliers.

    Still, Sanker said, relatively few suppliers would be granted "critical supplier" status in court, leaving many more that would have payments cut off.

    And GM is says it is not considering Chapter 11, but rather is continuing to seek government assistance. "Bankruptcy reorganization is not an option for GM because it would create more problems than it would solve," said spokesman Dan Flores.

    First Published: November 14, 2008: 12:25 PM ET
    John says:
    so i had to dump acid into the block tank today
    i'm afraid to fap
    cause i got it on my hands

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Southeast US
    Posts
    5,582
    I watched the whole hearing. There were some tough questions asked politicians who were grandstanding aside.

    One glaring truth that surfaced is that 25 billion will last them about ten minutes and before too long they'd all be back to the gov't for another several billion. None of the CEO's would admit to that but none of them would deny it either.

    Also the three of them are coming to the table as a pact when actually all three are in different states of urgency. Ford is in the best shape, then Chrysler but only a heartbeat ahead of GM. Yet when each was asked how they suspected the monies should be dispersed none had a clear answer.

    They are going to have to present their business plan to show that if given the loan that they can be a viable company without a major reconstruction. It's pretty clear there will have to be some consolidation, all three cannot survive.

    Also glaring was how choked the companies are by the UAW. Measures are being taken to shrink the number of employees and pay packages to get more competitive with the Asian car makers. Basically UAW workers get 70 dollars per hour pay + benefits against Asian counterpart companies at 44 dollars. If a plant goes idle the employees have to be paid 95% of their wages blah blah blah.

    Another killer is that states have crazy franchise laws which regulate how the American car makers to have handle their dealership number and/or reduce them...so of course their dealers out number the Asian competition about 6 to 1 yet they sell as many or more vehicles.

    Based on past similar situations in which the auto makers needed a 'lending hand' there wasn't anyone in the room who had faith that without major changes that little would improve and it would be a money pit for the tax payer.

    The American car industry is too bloated.... to get to the correct size the cuts in all aspects would be severe. It's the proverbial political football now so who knows how it will play out. Bankruptcy would pretty much gut the union which I know the Obama camp can't afford to do. I think this issue might be handed off to his administration as is though....no one can stomach the economic impact that is really needed.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    1,508
    I would hate to see any of them go under but I am leaning towards a Chapter 11 filing so the companies can finally shed the UAW restrictions as well as many of the old dealers. Both Ford and GM have shown great products in the pipeline. Ford would also be in better shape because without the Unions limiting "Ford" branded imports we could get more Euro-Fords without having to actually have them made in the US. So instead of having to set up a plant to build at least 250,000 Mondeos/year we could just import say 70,000 for people who want something nicer than a Fusion but not as large as the new Taurus.
    With the flexibility that the Japanese have and a similar cost structure I see no reason why Ford and GM couldn't compete once again.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Wishing I was in Moscow, Idaho
    Posts
    2,585
    If they do file for chapter 11 there is the fear that people will be scared away from their cars for that reason alone. Already sales are dropping because people think that if the companies go under their warranties won't be good or they won't be able to get parts. And you can't just hand it off to obama, since GM at least, if not chrysler, probably won't make it that long. Could be a bad depression and this time we won't have a WW2 to pull us out.

    In a side note, unions can be good when used correctly, but too many concessions can be crippling. My favorite knife company recently went under in part because the workers demanded too much for the company to remain competitive. And washington state road construction union rules are ridiculous. Nice when you work for them, but how long can it last when you're leaching them dry?
    Last edited by wwgkd; 11-18-2008 at 08:50 PM.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Idaho
    Posts
    6,369
    The automakers kind of brought this upon themselves...

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Wishing I was in Moscow, Idaho
    Posts
    2,585
    Quote Originally Posted by Zytek_Fan View Post
    The automakers kind of brought this upon themselves...
    Mostly yeah and if that's all there was to it I'd say let them drown, but they're taking a lot of people with them as they go down.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    East Coast of the United States
    Posts
    12,007
    My extremely evil side predicted GM's demise a long time ago. But then again, I feel sorry for those who are employed by GM.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Wishing I was in Moscow, Idaho
    Posts
    2,585
    Quote Originally Posted by NSXType-R View Post
    My extremely evil side predicted GM's demise a long time ago. But then again, I feel sorry for those who are employed by GM.
    GM is kind of like their cars, it ran badly longer than many companies ran at all...

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    1,508
    Quote Originally Posted by NSXType-R View Post
    My extremely evil side predicted GM's demise a long time ago. But then again, I feel sorry for those who are employed by GM.
    I don't think it was evil so much as a rational assessment of the facts. I think a lot of much of what GM does and defend them frequently. I still only gave them a 50-50 chance several years back before the financial implosion and gas crisis. I do think they were on the road to recovery but the gas prices and later credit crunch were the perfect storm and the crew didn't have time to repair the ship's prior leaks before the big one.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Northampton, Pennsylvania
    Posts
    7,989
    Kill the UAW.
    [O o)O=\x/=O(o O]

    The things we do for girls who won't sleep with us.

    Patrick says:
    dads is too long so it wont fit
    so i took hers out
    and put mine in

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Stop looking at me! Look at me! Stop looking at me!
    Posts
    1,873
    Two things:

    First, its not like if they don't get the money, GM will vanish into thin air. They'll have to sell off a lot of stuff, and maybe some competent companies will come in and run the individual pieces.

    Second, not allowing companies to fail is removing a fundamental piece of the free market. Its the whole thing that makes the system actually a free market and not a corporatocracy. They brought this on themselves. If its really the workers we're worried about, why not take this money and use it for retraining and unemployment for laid off workers?

    When companies get 'too big to fail' it should be splitting up time.
    Last edited by digitalcraft; 11-19-2008 at 05:45 PM.
    I dont if I'll make home tonight
    But I know I can swim
    under the Tahitian moon

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    └A & Connecticlump
    Posts
    5,367
    ^When was the last time anti-trust legislations was used to break up a corporation?
    "Kimi, can you improve on your [race] finish?"
    "No. My Finnish is fine; I am from Finland. Do you have any water?"

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Wishing I was in Moscow, Idaho
    Posts
    2,585
    Quote Originally Posted by f6fhellcat13 View Post
    ^When was the last time anti-trust legislations was used to break up a corporation?
    May not ahve been used to break them up, but Boeing was bumping into the antimonopoly laws for quite a while to the extent of turning down contracts they could have fulfilled just so that they didn't have too big of a market share.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    south beloit IL
    Posts
    875
    The core of the problem is the UAW. I hope gm and the other automakers do go under, so that they can come back and no longer be held hostage by the shitty UAW!
    My rides:
    1999 Mustang GT

    1974 Ford Country Squire (for sale!)

    1991 Jeep Cherokee

    1970 Shelby GT500

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Look at the flag!
    Posts
    705
    While I do agree that the UAW is a big problem to the "big 3's"... I also have to say that the management is crap. I watched part of the hearing today, and found it funny how the CEO's all took their own private jets at a cost of thousands of dollars (Which their respective companies will probably pay for,) and then when asked if the CEO's would take a pay cut, they all refused. So while the workers are taking pay cuts, the management will not, even though they make over 10 million dollars each... Funny about that eh!

    It is hard to get sympathy when your firing workers to try and save money, while your still making millions... Plus saying if your company fails it will mean millions out of work, but at the rate the big 3 are going... Most of their workers will be out of work anyways.

    I say let them go for chapter 11 and the management be fired... Then they can work on better contracts with the UAW. Plus drop some of their brands. Personally I think Ford, GM, and Chrysler have to many models and brands that compete with each other. Like Ford has Volvo, Lincoln etc. That are in competition with each other, meanwhile they are owned by the same company.
    Last edited by Equinox; 11-19-2008 at 11:51 PM.
    The statistics on sanity are that one out of every four Americans is suffering from some form of mental illness. Think of your three best friends. If they're okay, then it's you.
    -Rita Mae Brown-

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. GM's troubles lead to cuts in racing programs.
    By Dino Scuderia in forum Racing forums
    Replies: 12
    Last Post: 11-30-2008, 02:17 PM
  2. GM ending employee discount promotion.
    By Quiggs in forum General Automotive
    Replies: 21
    Last Post: 07-28-2005, 08:16 PM
  3. Billionare buys GM stock.
    By Quiggs in forum General Automotive
    Replies: 14
    Last Post: 05-08-2005, 11:18 PM
  4. Fiat looking to force GM out of the boardroom
    By Matra et Alpine in forum General Automotive
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: 02-18-2005, 07:46 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •