Double Clutching?

[clutch-monkey]

Anyone care to elaborate on heel-toe? I know its braking & accelerating with right foot but other than that

the way i do it, it's not really heel and toe
more..left side of foot and right side of foot; hard to explain, must be video of someone doing it out there.
although tbh it felt retarded when i first started trying it.


OT: never double clutched, at most will let the gear stick briefly pause in neutral rather than slamming it straight into next gear

[cmcpokey]

Anyone care to elaborate on heel-toe? I know its braking & accelerating with right foot but other than that

its all very easy, if you can do 5 things with your for limbs simultaneously.

position your right foot halfway on the brake and halfway on the gas. left foot is on the clutch as usual. as you are entering into a corner, you press the brake with half of your right foot. to down shift, you depress the clutch, hit the gas with the right half of your right foot as you are shifting, and once the gear is slotted, let out the clutch. when you hit the gas you should build 1000 to 1500 rpm, maybe a bit more, and that should take it so that when you engage the next lower gear it will be at the rpm that it should be at, given the speed.

so speed all that up to half a second, as your diving into a hairpin, and that's the quick and dirty on how to heel-toe. now get out there and practice, practice, practice.

[#1 Mustang Fan]

its all very easy, if you can do 5 things with your for limbs simultaneously.

position your right foot halfway on the brake and halfway on the gas. left foot is on the clutch as usual. as you are entering into a corner, you press the brake with half of your right foot. to down shift, you depress the clutch, hit the gas with the right half of your right foot as you are shifting, and once the gear is slotted, let out the clutch. when you hit the gas you should build 1000 to 1500 rpm, maybe a bit more, and that should take it so that when you engage the next lower gear it will be at the rpm that it should be at, given the speed.

so speed all that up to half a second, as your diving into a hairpin, and that's the quick and dirty on how to heel-toe. now get out there and practice, practice, practice.

Thanks, will have to try

Being from the 80's my car doesnt have a rev counter. Instead its got a wicked econo meter. Measures manifold vacuum. I'll have to use my sense of revs mhmm

[cmcpokey]

Thanks, will have to try

Being from the 80's my car doesnt have a rev counter. Instead its got a wicked econo meter. Measures manifold vacuum. I'll have to use my sense of revs mhmm

turn the radio down. use your ears, and feel it in your hands, feet and butt. hitting the gas should just be an instant, i just gave the rpm for a frame of reference.

[#1 Mustang Fan]

turn the radio down. use your ears, and feel it in your hands, feet and butt. hitting the gas should just be an instant, i just gave the rpm for a frame of reference.

I don't have a radio.

And I know what you mean. I've been riding motorbikes since 5 I think (I'm still learning though).

Btw that's a great context to put it in.

[lowdrag]

"Cars with stiff boxes" includes all Ferraris in the day. it was an accepted way of driving one that you only used 2nd, 4th and 5th until you had done 10 miles otherwise you'd damage the synchro. Had to wait for the oil to warm up. Also any pre August 1964 E type (Moss gearbox, also used in the first Morgan V8s) needs the double declutching technique because the synchro is so weak (and non existent on 1st). Modern cars have no need of the technique whatsoever but dragging the clutch at lights or whatever instead of putting the car in neutral will wear the clutch much quicker.

[Ferrer]

How so?

Because if you downshift with not enough smoothness and "dump" the clutch at high revs the wheels can lock up. Don't really know the technical explanation but it has happened to me a couple of times. Only on rear wheel drive cars though.

[drakkie]

could it be due to poor usage rather than not double clutching?
Pointless was perhaps a bit too much, but I don't see it as a necessary thing on a new Fiat Punto (or even an used mk1 one), for instance.

My Alto Mk.3 had this unfortunately after 250.000 kms on the counter.

[lowdrag]

Because if you downshift with not enough smoothness and "dump" the clutch at high revs the wheels can lock up. Don't really know the technical explanation but it has happened to me a couple of times. Only on rear wheel drive cars though.

Because you haven't matched the revs to the wheel speed so the engine, turning over much slower than it should to match the road speed, acts as a brake and locks the rear wheels until the engine revs pick up. That caused a serious accident here last November when a F430 Scuderia lost traction at over 100mph and hit a wall on pit straight. Paddle shifts huh.

[coolieman1220]

heel and toe is also easier on your clutch and passengers, instead of a big jerk, its smooth. it's the same as rev matching just you do it when you need to downshift for a turn and slow down at the same time.

What about skip shifting? is that ok? like going from second to fifth. of fifth to second.

[cmcpokey]

What about skip shifting? is that ok? like going from second to fifth. of fifth to second.

its fine i you just do that occasionally. if it is your regular driving pattern to go from 2nd the 5th then 3rd and 4th will have uneven wear.

[Ferrer]

Because you haven't matched the revs to the wheel speed so the engine, turning over much slower than it should to match the road speed, acts as a brake and locks the rear wheels until the engine revs pick up. That caused a serious accident here last November when a F430 Scuderia lost traction at over 100mph and hit a wall on pit straight. Paddle shifts huh.

Thanks for the technical explanation.

[f6fhellcat13]

Because if you downshift with not enough smoothness and "dump" the clutch at high revs the wheels can lock up. Don't really know the technical explanation but it has happened to me a couple of times. Only on rear wheel drive cars though.

OK. That makes sense, I was thinking about upshifting and completely forgot the other side of the coin.

So, today I decided to try this new and wonderful technique, and it felt very alien. It mostly felt like a nuisance because I shift at pretty low revs on surface streets, but going on a freeway onramp it felt much smoother, but much slower. So, unless the clutch starts acting nasty I think I will be lazy and be thankful for syncros. (I do rev-match on downshifts, though.)

[lowdrag]

coolieman, have you ever used the heel and toe thechnique? To start with few cars today have the pedals set up for it so it is difficult and even in the day it required a considerable amount of effort and training to get it right. I NEVER even think of using it on the road, only on the circuit when every split second is important. Brake (toes), revs (heel), gearchange, and that if you have synchro otherwise it ain't gonna work no matter what you do since you haven't synchronised the clutch speed to the engine and gearbox. Old cars need the double-declutching technique.

Now you make me laugh when I read about gear wear. Have you ever seen the technology that goes in to toughening the steel? My E type gearbox did over 200,000 miles or really serious motoring before it let go and the new(er) gearbox has already done 80,000 miles without a grumble. Modern gearboxes, with their micronic tolerances, will well outlast most cars I reckon although it has to be said that the majority are built for power and not torque. That for example, is why so many Japanese diesels aren't available with an auto box (the Honda Accord now has but a tougher box to cope with it).

Now please folks, if you are going to post please do so from experience and knowledge, not just from the top of your heads or reading someone else's rubbish. It is thus that urban myths are created and for me fact is paramount.

Oh, and Hellcat, don't even bother to double declutch. Just let the revs die on the upshift and a little blip on the downshift. That's all you need with a modern box.

[clutch-monkey]

agreed on the pedals, i find with my old 911 the pedals seem to be nicely positioned for heel and toe, i got the hang of it pretty nicely. but even some sporty cars today seem to have pedals not quite right for it