Why buy an SUV ??

[Slicks]

evidence .....

Well compared to american perfomance cars
Corvette 19/27
Camaro/firbird 19/27
GTO 18/27
Mustang Cobra 17/26
Viper 10/20 (yeah it sucks)
Ford GT 14/21

Than there are the japanese small displaced
S2000 20/26
NSX 17/24
EVO 18/26
3000GT Vr-4 18/24
Skyline GTR R34 14/23
Supra Turbo 17/23

[Matra et Alpine]

Well compared to american perfomance cars
Corvette 19/27
Camaro/firbird 19/27
GTO 18/27
Mustang Cobra 17/26
Viper 10/20 (yeah it sucks)
Ford GT 14/21

Than there are the japanese small displaced
S2000 20/26
NSX 17/24
EVO 18/26
3000GT Vr-4 18/24
Skyline GTR R34 14/23
Supra Turbo 17/23

Actually all those numbers show is that fast Japanese cars are equal polluters of fast US cars !!
There aren't any signifant differences and has already been pointed out performance cars use more gas

If you take the range of vehicles produced then you see the 'bunching' of US cars well below the Euroepan/Jap cars. The main reason is they're heavier, bigger engines, more power-consumming goodies. That is the US car market. Majority of the cars currently imported into the US are the top-end of the luxury or performance where the consumption IS worst. You don't see the hundreds of cars that are 2-3 times better than those figures.

[Coventrysucks]

This snow excuse is wearing thin.

In Sweden where it snows a LOT, they managed to get by without an SUV untill last year.

A normal car equipped with snow tyres / chains and a competant driver will out perform an SUV with ordinary SUV tyres.

If it doesn't snow enough for you to need snow chains/ tyres you probably don't need a SUV for the 360 days it doesn't snow.

[Falcon500]

Well for my opions on the subjectmy parents just bought a toyota prado at large expense their reasons behind it...they want to have a capeable vehical for mild off roading....they wish to own a comfterble car that they can drive around in for when they eventually retier....they want to tow a caravan and see Australia.
Also as a foot note this toyota prado will be able to replace our grey studebaker as our towing car (which is off the road undergoeing restoration) and is a more comfterble car at long distances then mums 77 datsun 120Y....their considerations of safety where not a priority...one dissapointment was they couldent get a nudge bar...the options list didnt include one...they wanted a nudge bar to protect them from hitting kangeroos which are abundant in country New south whales and country victoria....

So thems are the reasons behind my parents decisions...

We also have a close family freind who owns a 60 or 70 seriesland cruiser he uses it to cart his large family around in (3 kids wife himself and sometimes the dog) he also freaquently uses it for its intended purpose off roading he makes regular camping trips and also recieved 4x4 training in his time in the army and even teached a 4x4 course at the local collage....also this is more of a family/requational vehical he drives a magna to work every day....he reguarly uses it as a towing vehical for family and friends too....And another close family freind (in a toyta prado) who lives a little out of town and sometimes gos to see other people who are further out of town...so a vehical with 4x4 capeabilitys are an advantage....he also owns horses so again its used as a towing vehical....

In general im against 4x4s but i dont fully agree with the anti sentaments here so im posting only SOME (and i am really stressing that) of the responable 4x4 owners i know i feel the karma in the room improving mildly :P

[Matra et Alpine]

i dont fully agree with the anti sentaments here so im posting only SOME (and i am really stressing that) of the responable 4x4 owners i know i feel the karma in the room improving mildly :P

I wasn't aware of anyone holding a 'grudge' on all SUVs.
It's the SUVs owned by folks who would cry if their Gucci shows got a little dusty, never mind HEAVEN-FORBID getting mud on the tyres or worse the doros ! It might rub off on their Armani trousers !!!

[Slicks]

Actually all those numbers show is that fast Japanese cars are equal polluters of fast US cars !!
There aren't any signifant differences and has already been pointed out performance cars use more gas

If you take the range of vehicles produced then you see the 'bunching' of US cars well below the Euroepan/Jap cars. The main reason is they're heavier, bigger engines, more power-consumming goodies. That is the US car market. Majority of the cars currently imported into the US are the top-end of the luxury or performance where the consumption IS worst. You don't see the hundreds of cars that are 2-3 times better than those figures.

My argument was about perfomance engines though

[Falcon500]

I wasn't aware of anyone holding a 'grudge' on all SUVs.
It's the SUVs owned by folks who would cry if their Gucci shows got a little dusty, never mind HEAVEN-FORBID getting mud on the tyres or worse the doros ! It might rub off on their Armani trousers !!!

Well the name of the thread why by an suv doesnt give confidence....and the occasional bash has been made...
But i do see your point cheers for that

[Matra et Alpine]

My argument was about perfomance engines though

yes, but on V4 engines made in 1968 then the USA cars are wya behind on performance and consumption.

See, it's non-sensical to take a group of cars in isolation.

Doubly so when NOT including SUVs in an SUV thread

A society either worries about resources and pollution or doesn't.
But hey, I hear Russia is not going to ratify the Kyoto accord either now.
So the once mortal enemies are now on the same side.
Shame it's the planet that loses
[ Oops took ti even FURTHER from SUVs ]

[Slicks]

yes, but on V4 engines made in 1968 then the USA cars are wya behind on performance and consumption.

See, it's non-sensical to take a group of cars in isolation.

Doubly so when NOT including SUVs in an SUV thread

A society either worries about resources and pollution or doesn't.
But hey, I hear Russia is not going to ratify the Kyoto accord either now.
So the once mortal enemies are now on the same side.
Shame it's the planet that loses
[ Oops took ti even FURTHER from SUVs ]

My point was simple, first i said that SUVs consume about the same amount of gas as perfomance cars, which is true. Then i said that the smaller displaced perfomance based engines consume more gas than the larger displaced performanc engines. I said this to just get the point across that SUVs dont get bad gas milage because they have "big" engines.

[Matra et Alpine]

My point was simple, first i said that SUVs consume about the same amount of gas as perfomance cars, which is true. Then i said that the smaller displaced perfomance based engines consume more gas than the larger displaced performanc engines. I said this to just get the point across that SUVs dont get bad gas milage because they have "big" engines.

Never in dispute.

BUT you're missing the point.
They get bad gas mileage. They get it because they're big and inefficient and THAT needs a big engine.
All those SUVs NOT being used to tow or mudplug are unecessary.

and any argument about having the right to use the fuel as an owner and his/her money sees fit just doesn't wash in a world with a finite resource.

Relative to the numbers on the roads versus the 'performance' cars it's ludicrous and a waste of a scarce resource. I'd tried to point out that inappropriate comparisons mean nothing.
Sorry it didn't get through

[cls12vg30]

and any argument about having the right to use the fuel as an owner and his/her money sees fit just doesn't wash in a world with a finite resource.

I disagree. Most resources, right down to the amount of money available to an individual consumer, are finite, and thus fall under the perview of the laws of supply and demand. When you consider the world supply of oil, and current levels of consumption, it's going to start to run out, probably within this century, and alternative energy sources will have to be developed, whether 20% of U.S. consumers switch to SUV's or not. Much as it is hyped, the overall effect is negligible. I personally can't fathom spending the money to fuel an SUV, but if another person is willing to pay the price, I believe that is their right, and they don't have to justify it to anyone.

We as a culture can certainly make such a decision one that our society frowns upon, but when you allow a government entity to tell that person they don't need that vehicle, you will open up a huge can of governmental worms that should never be opened.

It's very easy to spout off about how the government needs to regulate this and that until that government decides to come after something that is important to you.

History has shown repeatedly that once such compromises of individual liberty begin, they spread like a virus, and progress inevitably toward totalitarianism, which eventually leads to violent uprising, revolution, or conquest, and then the cycle starts over again. Each phase of this cycle can last centuries, and is currently in various stages of progress both in the U.S. and all over the world, as it has been for all of history, but as free people our responsibility is to oppose and combat government interference in our lives and those of our fellow citizens as best we can.

[Matra et Alpine]

I disagree. Most resources, right down to the amount of money available to an individual consumer, are finite, and thus fall under the perview of the laws of supply and demand.

You need to read Locke's Two Treatise on Government.
These founded the principles of British and American government of the 17th and 18th centuries.
Suppu and demand is only part of it and RESPONSIBILITY is crucial

When you consider the world supply of oil, and current levels of consumption, it's going to start to run out, probably within this century,

Predictions for this summer is the US will have a fuel shortage and UK is going to have gas (real gas ) supply issues.

and alternative energy sources will have to be developed, whether 20% of U.S. consumers switch to SUV's or not. Much as it is hyped, the overall effect is negligible.

It was always the smalleset most insignificant LAST straw which broke the cammels back, BUT every individual straw contributed.

I believe that is their right, and they don't have to justify it to anyone.

Shuold someone be allowed to steal food from you freezer because his family is hungry ?
No, responsibility ( through law ) comes to bear and should do in any society.

We as a culture can certainly make such a decision one that our society frowns upon, but when you allow a government entity to tell that person they don't need that vehicle, you will open up a huge can of governmental worms that should never be opened.

Americans are SO afraid of a socially responsible government that you struggle to see the benfits and let the extremem alternative run riot in your lives and think it "free".

It's very easy to spout off about how the government needs to regulate this and that until that government decides to come after something that is important to you.

with a social conscience then a government "goes after" those things which prevent injustive and provide a fair and just society for ALL.
The alternative is the power of a few.
Britain had it with it's baronies. US has it with it's corporations.

History has shown repeatedly that once such compromises of individual liberty begin, they spread like a virus, and progress inevitably toward totalitarianism, which eventually leads to violent uprising, revolution, or conquest, and then the cycle starts over again.

That is an excellent description of fascism, but is a long way from socialism and the ideals of communism ( note I say 'ideals' as it's difficult to make communism work successfully due to our inability to control nature.

Each phase of this cycle can last centuries, and is currently in various stages of progress both in the U.S. and all over the world, as it has been for all of history, but as free people our responsibility is to oppose and combat government interference in our lives and those of our fellow citizens as best we can.

I strongly disagree. The individual responsibility is to ensure a JUST society for ALL. In the UK it was called the "I'm all right Jack" mentaility. It's OK if you're the strongest. If you've any weakness then it gets exploited.
Being magnanimous is better in the long run to avoid being taken later

[cls12vg30]

Well we've got different ideas about ideal government, Matra. (My ideal govt. would barely exist at all.) I believe when a government has to provide a "safety net" for some citizens, not only does it serve to perpetuate poverty for those citizens, but it inevitably has a negative effect on the productivity and innovation of those citizens that have no need of said safety net. Individual liberty and individual responsibility go hand in hand. I despise the idea of socialism with every fiber of my being.

[Matra et Alpine]

Well we've got different ideas about ideal government, Matra. (My ideal govt. would barely exist at all.) I believe when a government has to provide a "safety net" for some citizens, not only does it serve to perpetuate poverty for those citizens, but it inevitably has a negative effect on the productivity and innovation of those citizens that have no need of said safety net. Individual liberty and individual responsibility go hand in hand. I despise the idea of socialism with every fiber of my being.

How can you despise something you've never experienced and is reported SOOO negatively in the US press ?
McCarthy did a lot of damage to the psyche of the nation !!
To help , I strongly recommend reading Locke's treatise.
You'll understand the point of equality, better grasp the need for 'responsible' governments and maybe see the distortion capitalism above all has done to the intents of the founding fathers
Or maybe not.
As they say, shit can be warm, comfortable and safe ( reference to the bird/fox joke )

[crisis]

Why?
Towing, offroad use, cargo space.

Why not?
Size, manouverabilty, fuel efficiency.

You can tow most things with a big V8 two wheel wheel drive with poor fuel economy. You can get cargo space from a truck or large wagon with poor fuel economy.
Large sedans are not as manouverable as smaller cars, or as fuel efficient.

So how big should a car be? How efficient should it be? What colour should it be?
Do we need sports cars? Two seaters make them inefficient for transporting people. Many have large and powerful engines that are bad for fuel efficinecy.

I and around ten of my freinds have large nasty 4x4s. None have been rolled. Im sure you can roll them if you try. You can crash a Corolla if you aim it at something.

The oil shortage is manufactured by OPEC. As at 2000, the known reserves are a trillion barrels (1 barrel equals 159 liters, 42 gallons, or 0.16 m3), the estimated world reserves, according are about 1.5 x 1011 m3. 1 trillion barrels of crude oil is enough to supply the world for about 50 years. This prediction is based on the present world consumption, however, world consumption is expected to increase.

Im going fishing next month in my mates supercharged 100 series Landcruiser. It is one of my vices.

Now can we ask why buy one of these? Kylie excepted.