2010 24 Hours of Le Mans, LMS and ALMS news

[Chernaudi]

You seem to forget that the guys in the second Audi brought it home in second at Le Mans, and disregarding their other accomplishments (Super GT and FIA GT)

And aero is a big part of it--the Pugs at Spa ran in high downforce trim, and that keeps more heat in the tires on a cold track. You also seem to be disregarding that Sarazin is an ex-rally driver. Pagenauld in the winning 908, even with the high downforce package, nearly buried it in the gravel on a damp track.

Audi's drivers themselves even say that the R15 is much easier to drive with the high downforce package. But is it faster? Aero is just part of the issue. At PLM, the Pugs were on edge if you ask me on handling, but that's maybe what makes them fast. I also think that Peugeot have moved away from the rock-hard F1 suspension set ups (aside from Le Mans), as the J-damper does the job just fine on its own. Sportscars have one thing that F1 cars don't currently have--low profile tires.

On F1 cars, and even NASCAR stock cars, the tires do a fair amount of acting as a suspension medium. On sportscars, the low profile tires don't allow much for that. As a result, the Pugs did tend to be edgy and hard to drive on bumpy tracks like in America. This year, it seems that Peugeot has finally learned that lesson, which they ironically gleaned from Audi on how to get the ballance between stiffness and compliance.

I think that's helped Peugeot in the rain, but at Silverstone in the wet, the Pugs still seemed to be a handfull in the wet. Nevertheless, Peugeot has learned that building suspension that's filled with concrete can't be relied upon to get the job done.

By the same token, it can be argued that Audi needs to re-learn (from the R8) that "loose is fast", because the Pugs seemed to be loose in fast corners, but it was controlable. Audi says that the R8 had very slight understeer which could be managed by power oversteer.

Audi should look to the past for their success, as the more conventional 908 is still competive with the theorietically more advanced R15. The 908 has emulated the R8, and maybe Audi should do the same instead of going on a whim and trying to build an oversized LMP2 car like what Acura tried to do, and we know how that ended for Acura.

In short, Audi needs to focus on getting the car mechanically hooked up and using the areo to enhance it, instead on using LMP2 areo fads.

[henk4]

Coming second at Le Mans this year, with all the Pugs along the wayside, is not a particularly outstanding performance, and GT driving is something else. Fassler has been in LMS prototypes on and off over the last five year, but failed to impress. B.t.w. you almost make it sound like it poses an unfair advantage to use former rallye drivers.

Anyway, let's see in China what we will have. My money would be on a Peugeot, for purely objective reasons.....after that 908 and R15 will be retired, so let's see what comes next year, if anything.

[Chernaudi]

Which is another thing that I'm trying to address, and why Peugeot might be at a disadvantage next year-2.0 four bangers haven't had the best of reliablity records, and some are saying that's the route that Peugeot may be going, a 2.0T four gas engine with KERS, while Audi will likely run a V8 diesel with KERS.

But to speak to what you've said about the drivers in the #8 (or at PLM, #9) Audi, there's a reason why they replaced Werner and Luhr, who didn't do well at all in the R15 in '09. It should be noted that Dumas and Bernhard had a hard time adjusting to the R15, and they won LM this year, and the "dreamteam" of Allan, Dindo and Tom weren't fast enough to pull a gap over the #8 or #9 Audi at LM this year or catch up after TK's spin...not even Allan. And the #9 Audi at LM was marginally slower than the #7 or #8, but in '09, the slowest Pug won LM that year. Maybe there's a lesson there.

And at Peugeot, it's unfair to use an ex-rally driver against their own open wheel pros The Peugeot open wheel expertian (Pagenauld, Bordais, Montangy) can't hold a candle to Sarazin in mixed conditons, and he did better than most in keeping the unweildly 908 on the road in wet weather. But why was the Pug unweildly int he wet? Stiff springing, which they seem to have learned that they can tone down and still run competitive lap times and reduce the gap to Audi in the wet.

There's also a fear factor, too. In road racing, you usually have to worry about hitting tire walls or gravel pits. In rallying, you have to worry about hitting big rocks, streams or trees! Fear factor, or lack there of, perhaps

I don't know if Zhuhai is a bumpy as Road Atlanta is, but I think that what may've saved Peugeot (aside from the #07 falling on it's sword to deprive McNish of track position under yellow) is that extra complaince, as the Pugs were tail out without being out of control--if they stuck to their guns with the stiff suspension set-ups that they used to use, the would've been on the edge of wrecking each lap. Even at Sebring this year the Pugs looked hairy with the stiff setups they ran there.

By the same token, Audi might be helped with a stiffer suspension set up, but they have the same issues that Peugeot used to have, too. Either way, I still feel for them to be a factoy in China and have some margin for error, they have to find half a second in pace on a flying lap. But that remains to be seen, but maybe testing somewhere aside from the rinky-dink infield road course at EuroSpeedway would help, and I know that Germany, France and the Benelux region have plenty of decent road courses. I have a Dutch musician friend and she lives within a 45 minutes drive of the Nurburgring and Spa. One wouldn't think that Audi, who have done testing in Florida to develop the R15 for this year(and intend to do the same for the R18) for god's sake, would be a little more choosy with their course selection there.

With the 2010 season about over, maybe it's time for a 2011 ALMS/LMS/ILMC/LM24 thread if you and Woulter don't object.

[henk4]

Which is another thing that I'm trying to address, and why Peugeot might be at a disadvantage next year-2.0 four bangers haven't had the best of reliablity records,

check the engine in the Citroen WRC car, please.....
and b.t.w. Sarazzin and Minassian also spent some time in open wheel racers,

[Chernaudi]

WRC engines I don't think will last a 24 hour sports car race. But then again, Super GT cars use 3.4 liter flat crank V8s, and the factory developed versions of those engines endure in thos races--the Honda HSV uses the same engine that the Acura/HPD ARX-01 uses.

Still, it'll take a lot or reworking of the Citroen/PSA 2.0 T I4 for sports car racing--the WRC Ford and Citroen engines uses anti-lag software, which is not only illegal in ACO/IMSA sanctioned races, but is hard on the engines, unless Peugeot go the Audi route and use a VTG turbocharger, which is legal, but so far have only worked on diesel engines (like the R15's V10 TDI diesel), and on the Porsche 911 road car.

The AER P07 was broadly based on the Rover K-series engine and developed with help from MG Rover, but it was a hand grenade. The AER/Mazda MZR-R hasn't been very reliable, either. And it seems that those engines contain the seeds of their own destruction--stock block engines running insane boost levels, which are rumored to be on par with the LMP1 diesels. It's one thing for a stock block 2.0T four banger to make the WRC's 300bhp threshold, but another to make 550+bhp for 24 hours.

But then again, maybe the KERS system will help, but it depends on how the ACO makes teams use it (I doubt that KERS will be used as a power boosting system like in F1, as the ACO it seems prefers it to power the cars at pit road speed and to boost fuel mileage, but, then again, this is the ACO...). Audi may run a gasoline engine for all I know--at Ten Tenths, someone asked Ullrich Baretzky from Audi Sport about the R18, it engine and KERS system, and if it will be an open or closed car. Baretzky's answer on all counts: "Wait and see".

Since both Audi and Peugeot claim to have examples of the R18 and the 90x at advanced stages of construction, we'll have to wait until November or December for photos and, maybe, specs. However, with the success the 908 has had, espcially in terms of straight line speed at Le Mans, the R18 will likely be a coupe, and why would Peugeot do any different? But it's rumored that Audi will have a KERS diesel, either a V8 or maybe even a V6, and Peugeot may have a 2.0T KERS inline four or a V6 possibly.

Again, maybe time for a 2011 sportscar thead, since the R15 and the 908 are on their way to being mothballed, or, in the case of the Audi R15 that ran at PLM this week once it's rebodied at Inglostadt and the #3 Pug from LM gets its suspension mount fixed, on their way to museums.

[RacingManiac]

905 also did not have active suspension....

[Wouter Melissen]

And at Peugeot, it's unfair to use an ex-rally driver against their own open wheel pros The Peugeot open wheel expertian (Pagenauld, Bordais, Montangy) can't hold a candle to Sarazin in mixed conditons, and he did better than most in keeping the unweildly 908 on the road in wet weather.

Hmm who was on the pole for three years straight? I guess he used his rally skills to cut some corners ...

[Chernaudi]

In the rain, if Sarazin cut corners, I assure you it wasn't on his own accord or by his own will, especially before this year! Before this year, when Peugeot finally got it in their heads that putting some complicance in the previously rock hard suspensions would make the cars more consistant and easier to drive--and drive fast, you may as well have given the Pug drivers a Morris Marina! Ironically, Olivier Panis, who does ice racing when he's on drivng one of Oreca's cars in the LMS (such as their 908), had to race against, among others, James May in a Marina on an episode of Top Gear. And if you ask me, the Marina is only about the 5th worse car ever made, beaten out by the Austin Allegro, the Morris Ital (the cynically re-skinned Marina), the Yugo 45 and the ZAZ 96x series.

Back on topic, at least Bruno Famin, who was in charge of the Pug effort at PLM while Quesnel was doing his second job as boss of the Citroen WRC program, admitted openly to Speed commentators to putting their own spin on what Audi has done. They basically came as close to plagerism as one can get without crossing the line in as far as learning from the Audi technique, especially car set up and pit stop techniques. That's erased a lot of the time that used to be lost on the Pug stops.

But Peugeot know that to be among the best, you must fight and on occasion beat the best, and you can't do that by screwing up pit stops and making bad strategy calls and giving your drivers a car that's hard to drive. And that's where Audi beat Peugeot so badly. In a 1000km race, having the fastest car is a big help, but in a longer race, bungled stragegy calls, a fast but rough-handling car, and butchered pit stops add up.

Peugeot have had to emulate Audi to get to where they are. But as I said, if you want to compete and become an equal to the best, you have to beat the best, and Peugeot have finally done that this year for once, even though LM did seem to show some desperation on Peugeot's apart because the Audis were close enough on speed that any error that Peugeot made would be magnified. Hence, in the fight for more speed, Peugeot made what we can all agree was an unforced, inexplicable error with the rods at LM.

And one more thing I think that Peugeot has learned from Audi is that if you let everyone on the team do their job, things will come to you. If you have a good team that's in good hands, the drivers can do their jobs, and vice versa. I think that Barge and initially Quesnel tried to micromanage things, and found out that it often backfires. Audi, of course, have had Ullrich and Joest and formerly the Champion team micromanage issues, but they kept it within reason. If you ease off and only try to control the things you can control, it reduces stress and allows everyone to get on with the task at hand. I call it the Rick Hendrick model--he finds the best people he can get and tells them to have at it the best they can. And if there's disagreements, he pulls out the milk and cookies and tells the people involved to "have at it boys until we all come to an agreement." Simple strategy, but it has obviously worked with Jimmie Johnson winning 4 straight championships and possibly a fifth this year.

In that regard, NASCAR has Rick Hendrick, and sportscar racing has Reinhold Joest and formerly Dave Maraj from Champion Racing. Peugeot may have copied some of the concepts of Audi as a team, but it works, and sometimes to compete with the best, you have do what the best does to get on even par, then whatever happens, happens--especially since there's so few new ideas in racing from a car designers' standpoint.

I still feel that if Audi had better set up their cars for changable conditions at Silverstone and didn't have the differential problem and if they didn't have Dindo's helmet problem(and made the R15's front end a little stronger to the point where the front diffuser wouldn't break off it's mounts and trash the front of the car in a simple curb hopping incident--problems that the R8, R10 and the 908 never really had!), things would've been a lot closer than the ended up being. But until someone has the ablity to go back in time and warn Audi of those issues, we're stuck with what we have.

[henk4]

I am sorry to say but I have stopped reading this. First, it is rather late over here and second, my wine glass is almost empty. Can I summarise, if my brother had been a girl she would have been my sister? Let's start talking about the new season.

[Chernaudi]

May as well, as the Audi/Peugeot fight will be about the only interesting thing about China--the ACO had to do as the ALMS and get LMPC/FLM cars and GT3 cars to enter the event, and even then we only have as of now 27 cars total entered. At least it'll be a head to head fight against Audi and Peugeot if both cars run competitive times.

And to be honest, PLM wasn't the wreck-fest I though it would be. It seems that IMSA did a good job telling the prototype drivers to mind their manners and the pro-am drivers to stay out of the way.

Aside from Audi trying to win at China and trying to steal the teams' title from Peugeot (a long shot, but not as long as winning the manufacturers' title) and who will win the race, there's not a whole lot that's interesting, aside from rubbing in the fact that Audi R8 LMS will run at Zhuhai, and that GTC is a spec Porsche class in the ALMS.

I even read on an Audi forum that there's a conspriacy theory that the ALMS either tried to keep the R8 from racing in GTC to get Audi to commit to prototypes for next year in the ALMS, or they'd open up GTC if they did run LMP1 cars as well. Either way, the closest that we'll get to a full Audi program in the ALMS is a couple of Lamborghini Gallardos that will run in GT2.

Either way, I think it's time to move on to 2011 speculation, which to a degree has already happened here.

[henk4]

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perhaps Audi should also consider to hire (ex) Rallye drivers.....

[Chernaudi]

Or Audi should fire the guy in charge of their carbon fiber body department. They used a carbon fiber front diffuser on the original R15, why couldn't they make it work on the 2010 car? If the couldn't get the mold to work, get out the sand paper and the Bondo. I'll bet that if a Pug went off like that, the car wouldn't do that, mostly because they wouldn't have to worry about a 30lb piece of aluminum that's 30mm thick burying itself in the ground--Remember in '08 Klien tried to dive bomb McNish and took to the grass, and no damage was done, and that was at over 190mph!

You'd think that if Peugeot can hold the fragile 908 together in a 190mph off, you'd think that Audi could do that in a slow off. Certianly the R10 and obviously the R8 never had those issues.

Maybe Audi should go back to building tanks instead of enclosed F1 cars. And I must remind you that Davidson had a similar off the previous night, but his car mostly stayed together until it found a concrete wall. Either way, there's no excuse in my mind that a simple off, taken to with the intent of minimize damage, should nearly destroy a car--deffo a bad mark for Audi Sport there.

[Chernaudi]

Not necessarily releveant to 2010, but good news none the less. Speed TV and Endurance-Info are reporting that a group of people lead by Jaques Nicolet bought the assets of the bankrupt 2010 incarnation of Pescarolo Sport at auction today, and have appearently given stewardship and ownership back to Henri Pescarolo.

[henk4]

Not necessarily releveant to 2010, but good news none the less. Speed TV and Endurance-Info are reporting that a group of people lead by Jaques Nicolet bought the assets of the bankrupt 2010 incarnation of Pescarolo Sport at auction today, and have appearently given stewardship and ownership back to Henri Pescarolo.

Good news indeed, Nicolet and Pescarolo have been intertwined for quite a while now, and this will be a big relieve for Henri, as he will most likely not have to worry about precarious finances any more.

[Chernaudi]

Some of the best news as far as sportscar racing to come out of 2010, but there are still some funding concerns, namely sponsorship, and that the team lost two of their best drivers to Audi and Rebellion. And I don't think that Sony France and Polyphony Digital will just hand over the Playstation/Gran Tursimo 5 sponsorship to Henri et cie from Peugeot. And knowing how that sponsor package has worked, Sony France has tended to favor bigger teams to begin with, such as Oreca, the Citroen WRC team, and now Peugeot.

Still, that does bode well for the French fans who'd rather back Pescarolo's underdog effort than the factory Peugeot team.