Toyota deliberately chose to ignore the facts.

[coolieman1220]

we need a clutch to press! turning off your car loses your braking vaccum. so difficult to stop without a vaccum. netural should work a well. people cant drive. the end.

[Brix]

The PSA cars they recalled are the 107 and C1, which are in fact badge engineered version of the Toyota Aygo.

The problem seems to be that the process isn't being handled with dignity, speed and quietness.

No the Aygo, 107 and C1 is made as an joint venture, not as a "rebadge". Toyota and PSA has an equal share in the cars, Toyota (unfortunately) supplied the speeder.

But thats the thing - the major auto press are covering it, for sure, but the mainstream media have it at a cursive side story. Toyota makes cars in Australia, and there will be serious issues if they don't inform customers, but there hasn't been a sensational news story beating it up.
If it's going to cause a stink it'll be the arrogants at Toyota US.
Or, indeed, the corporate "save-face" culture of Japan.

I do not know the media situation in Australian, but i know that in Europe and the USA this is a big thing!, especially the USA where 19 people have died of it!.
No matter how Toyota handles this, this is going hurt them bad!

[Ferrer]

No the Aygo, 107 and C1 is made as an joint venture, not as a "rebadge". Toyota and PSA has an equal share in the cars, Toyota (unfortunately) supplied the speeder.

Well then the throttle is the badge engineered part. Tough luck they could've choose something else to badge engineer, like the indicators. At least if they get stuck you don't crash...

[Alastor]

Only if you turn the car off completely. If you just kill the ignition you'll only lose power assistance on the brakes and steering.

Probably because making the dead people look stupid in the media would create a shitstorm for them.

Seems like two events really brought this issue to light recently:

Lexus ES 350 Involved in Fatal Crash Evidently Had a Stuck Throttle During Previous Loan

Guy gets a loaner and the gas pedal gets stuck, he gets the car stopped by using the brakes and putting the car in neutral. The car over-revs until he get it shut off...it has a push-button start so you have to hold the "START" button for 3-seconds.

Second guy get same car, it is a loaner so he is probably not familiar with how it works, throttle sticks again and the brakes don't work to stop the car and crashes into an intersection killing himself and three other family members.

Now if you are not familiar with the car, would you know that you have to hold the START button down for three seconds to turn the engine off? Can you just shift the transmissions into neutral, or do you have to move to up and then to the left or some weird shift. Do you have time to figure all this out at +100 MPH?

I have had the throttle stick on me more than once...and the first time is a real "pucker your butt" experience. After that you kind of know what to do, but there isn't always a lot time to divert you attention away from not running shit over to getting the car out of gear or turned off.

[culver]

I'm not a Toyota fan but I don't know that we can say they ignored the facts just yet. When the whole Ford Pinto thing happened years back many people claimed Ford knew of the problem and chose to ignore it. However, if you look at the modern academic literature on the subject you will see that there is little evidence to support the claim that Ford "knew" about the problem. In actuality the rate of gas tank fires in Pintos was not particularly high. Even in the eary 1970s Ford did track these sorts of things and basically at the time there wasn't enough evidence to suggest the number of Pinto fires were abnormally high. In retrospect Ford was right to think the Pinto wasn't bursting into flames at an alarming rate. However, the hype regarding the car basically forced Ford's hand in the mater. For more info see: Pinto "Madness" as a Flawed Landmark Narrative: An Organizational and Network Analysis, Author(s): Matthew T. Lee and M. David Ermann

It is apparent Toyota's design process missed this. We can see there is something inherent in the Toyota designs that is more problematic than the competitors designs. However, that flaw may not have been well known or understood by Toyota until recently. We get on a car company's case if we feel they delayed in doing a recall like this. However, the alternative isn't great either. The alternative would be any time something remotely looks like it might be a problem we recall everything. That would dry up a company's coffers very quickly and incorrectly erode confidence in the company.

Basically, these things are rarely as clear cut as people make them out to be. For historical perspective on this sort of thing the Pinto Madness article I cited above is a very good read.

[G35COUPE]

I'm not a Toyota fan but I don't know that we can say they ignored the facts just yet. When the whole Ford Pinto thing happened years back many people claimed Ford knew of the problem and chose to ignore it. However, if you look at the modern academic literature on the subject you will see that there is little evidence to support the claim that Ford "knew" about the problem. In actuality the rate of gas tank fires in Pintos was not particularly high. Even in the eary 1970s Ford did track these sorts of things and basically at the time there wasn't enough evidence to suggest the number of Pinto fires were abnormally high. In retrospect Ford was right to think the Pinto wasn't bursting into flames at an alarming rate. However, the hype regarding the car basically forced Ford's hand in the mater. For more info see: Pinto "Madness" as a Flawed Landmark Narrative: An Organizational and Network Analysis, Author(s): Matthew T. Lee and M. David Ermann

It is apparent Toyota's design process missed this. We can see there is something inherent in the Toyota designs that is more problematic than the competitors designs. However, that flaw may not have been well known or understood by Toyota until recently. We get on a car company's case if we feel they delayed in doing a recall like this. However, the alternative isn't great either. The alternative would be any time something remotely looks like it might be a problem we recall everything. That would dry up a company's coffers very quickly and incorrectly erode confidence in the company.

Basically, these things are rarely as clear cut as people make them out to be. For historical perspective on this sort of thing the Pinto Madness article I cited above is a very good read.

There is such a thing as PR (Public Relations), a most powerful tool for fixing image. It would not be surprising to know that FORD has used such techniques to clean their image.

[Ferrer]

There is such a thing as PR (Public Relations), a most powerful tool for fixing image. It would not be surprising to know that FORD has used such techniques to clean their image.

Sometimes stereotypes are very hard to beat, if possible at all. A classic case in point are the Beta rust problems in the UK in the 70's.

[culver]

There is such a thing as PR (Public Relations), a most powerful tool for fixing image. It would not be surprising to know that FORD has used such techniques to clean their image.

No question PR is a powerful motivator. Sadly it can lead to illogical results since we as people are often very swayed sensationalism vs statistics. This Toyota recall probably falls into that camp.

In the Ford article it mentioned that just as many fatal Pinto wrecks were traced to failures of the car's transmission as gas tank fires. That same transmission was used in several other cars so truth be told the "Pinto" transmission was likely responsible for more deaths than Pinto gas tank fires. Which one does the public remember and fear? Which one caused the public outcry? If the press was really keeping tabs they would have ignored the gas tank and demanded that Ford fix the transmission.

[cargirl1990]

The Illuminati has struck the car world

[Brix]

Sometimes stereotypes are very hard to beat, if possible at all. A classic case in point are the Beta rust problems in the UK in the 70's.

A even more classic case is that Opel and Fiat in general has awful mechanics, French awful electronics, UK cars awful build quality.. and so on...
Stereotypes are there, and will always be there, and this is the reason why this crisis for Toyota is so bad, because their stereotype was/is a good one, being flawless cars, but now this is challenged in such a way that they may lose it for good.
But any way it will be forgotten by the next generation (all under 18), unless new problems occur for Toyota which could seal a new stereotype.

[culver]

Sometimes stereotypes are very hard to beat, if possible at all. A classic case in point are the Beta rust problems in the UK in the 70's.

And the Pinto gas tank fires. It wasn't until the entire Audi unintended acceleration report on NBC was discredited that people started to change their minds about the company.

[Ferrer]

A even more classic case is that Opel and Fiat in general has awful mechanics, French awful electronics, UK cars awful build quality.. and so on...
Stereotypes are there, and will always be there, and this is the reason why this crisis for Toyota is so bad, because their stereotype was/is a good one, being flawless cars, but now this is challenged in such a way that they may lose it for good.
But any way it will be forgotten by the next generation (all under 18), unless new problems occur for Toyota which could seal a new stereotype.

Well yes, but for some reason italian cars still rust and break down a lot. Likewise french cars are awful and well there aren't any relatively affordable british cars to talk about.

I have a friend which likes cars, but isn't into car as much as I am. Whenever I mention an Alfa Romeo he stares at me saying, what the hell? They are all awful. And when we went to the Barcelona Motorshow and sat inside a C6 and I told him I liked it very much he thought I was mad.

Stereotypes are very powerful. Beware Toyota if you lose a generation, because the next one will be even harder to get.

[Brix]

Well yes, but for some reason italian cars still rust and break down a lot. Likewise french cars are awful and well there aren't any relatively affordable british cars to talk about.

I have a friend which likes cars, but isn't into car as much as I am. Whenever I mention an Alfa Romeo he stares at me saying, what the hell? They are all awful. And when we went to the Barcelona Motorshow and sat inside a C6 and I told him I liked it very much he thought I was mad.

Stereotypes are very powerful. Beware Toyota if you lose a generation, because the next one will be even harder to get.

As you say:
Well yes.
But a single incident wont burn in the memories of the next generation, but if this evolves to more than a single incident (or just continues in this scale) then it will burn, and Toyota will see themselves reduced to the level of Nissan, Mazda (which might be the next Toyota in quality and reputation) and Honda.
What i support my theory on is my own experience as a 20 year old, from my friends. Almost nobody know about the typical stereotypes from the 70's, 80's and 90's. What they base their knowledge on is practically a clean sheet. And i believe the next generation will do the same.
But a bad experience or media exposure will leave a deeper impact on these generations then the previous, if they aren't handled in time.

[clutch-monkey]

Well, you try to think to do that in 1 second before you crash!

i remember in at least one case they had time to call 911 and say a prayer. rather than doing something useful.

[G35COUPE]

No question PR is a powerful motivator. Sadly it can lead to illogical results since we as people are often very swayed sensationalism vs statistics. This Toyota recall probably falls into that camp.

In the Ford article it mentioned that just as many fatal Pinto wrecks were traced to failures of the car's transmission as gas tank fires. That same transmission was used in several other cars so truth be told the "Pinto" transmission was likely responsible for more deaths than Pinto gas tank fires. Which one does the public remember and fear? Which one caused the public outcry? If the press was really keeping tabs they would have ignored the gas tank and demanded that Ford fix the transmission.

While i see your logic, it is hard to see the gas tank problem of the Ford Pinto as isolated. Ford has had the same problem, with their Crown Victoria (Police Package), which by the way has no crown on it. I have no clue why they keep referrring to it as a Crown Victoria. The "Vic" had victims.

USATODAY.com - Ford Crown Victoria's safety comes under scrutiny