Does Honda Civic Type R pull better in 6th gear than the 8.3L Viper SRT/10?

[karabiner98k]

I have two road tests which one of them is about Honda Civic Type R and another one relates to Dodge Viper SRT/10.
German magazines measure in-gear times such as 80-120km/h in 6th gear to show that how the car performs in high gears and low revs.
When it comes to 80-120km/h in 6th gear, Honda Civic Type R with a tiny and peaky 2.0L engine had better tractability than the Viper with a huge, torquey 8.3L engine. (80-120km/h in 6th gear for Honda is 12.3s and for Viper is 13.7s)
According to test conditions the air temperature is 4 degrees for viper and the air pressure is 1016(mbar). For Honda the air temperature is 10 degrees and the air pressure is 1028(mbar).
According to air density formula (p=P/R.T), the air density for Viper's test is better and Viper in that test had better volumetric efficiency.
But despite better test conditions for Viper and a hugeeeee 6.3L difference in engine size and a massive 518nm difference in torque (711-193=518nm), Honda is still 1.4s faster in 6th gear.
How is this possible???
I am totally confused.
Please someone enlighten me.
Here are the tests:
Honda Civic Type R
http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/8...rvsgolfgti.jpg
Dodge Viper SRT/10
http://img301.imageshack.us/img301/6...0supertest.jpg

[Ferrer]

Try looking at the gear ratios.

[karabiner98k]

Try looking at the gear ratios.

Here are the gear ratios:

Honda Civic Type R:

VI) 0.74
Final drive ratio: 5.06

Dodge Viper SRT/10

VI) 0.50
Final drive ratio: 3.07

What is the result now??

[henk4]

Try looking at the gear ratios.

a friend of mine years ago had a Saab 9000 Turbo, and he was eager to claim that in (top) gear accelaration of his car was better than that of a Ferrari Testarossa.....however his Saab stopped at 220, and the Ferrari went on and on....

[DesmoRob]

Even if the Civic has that tiny little spot of advantage, its not really anything to write home about. Lets face it, the Viper would suck the little Type-R clean through its intake, mash it up and sh!t it back out its exhaust.
Kind of like Pieter's example, while the Civic might have that little bit of pull, it would soon fall flat on its face while the Viper effortlessly continues to spin the earth out of orbit.

[clutch-monkey]

possibly, since the civic would have tighter gear ratios to stay in the powerband, and the viper has tall gears iirc.
but it means nothing

[RacingManiac]

especially for a car that geared to go over 200mph, 80-120km/h for a Viper is probably barely above idle in 6th...

And its not unusual for a lot of American car to have a really tall 6th gear for EPA fuel economy testing....

[karabiner98k]

Thanks for your answers. So, Could the reason of Honda's advantage be attributed to gearing?

[Kitdy]

Thanks for your answers. So, Could the reason of Honda's advantage be attributed to gearing?

That is the reason - it has much lower gearing than the Viper.

[karabiner98k]

I also think that the main reason is the gearing.
But there are some other factors which are important:

1) Honda has flatter torque curve
2) Honda has shorter tire radius
3) Honda is 265kg lighter

I think the above factors along with shorter gearing give advantage to Honda.

Am i right?

[clutch-monkey]

1) Honda has flatter torque curve

...huh?
the viper would be all over the honda in terms of torque

[karabiner98k]

...huh?
the viper would be all over the honda in terms of torque

I didn't mean that Honda has more torque than the Viper, I meant that Honda has flatter torque curve all through the rev range. For example Honda has 90% of it's peak torque available at 2500RPM but Viper loses more torque when you go lower in the rev range. The reason is that Honda has a sophisticated VVT system.

[Matra et Alpine]

K, yes you're right that the Viper is likely off the bottom of it's usable torque curve.
WHICH brings the whole thing back to the ONLY reason the Honda wins is the gearing.
( and tyre radius gets included in that ).

It's a pointless comparison.
WHAT is more useful is to compare WHEN THE DRIVER MAXIMISES THE PERFORMANCE OF THE MACHINE .... and at that the Viper would drop three cogs, the Honda two and by the time the Honda has let the clutch UP the Viper's gone.

That's what torque and gears will do for you

Now get the comparison into real world on twisties and really making the MASS the key issue then the Honda can hold it's head up better. BUT it will never win in the straight line torque beyond 20mph - and even then FWD will struggle on grip

[karabiner98k]

K, yes you're right that the Viper is likely off the bottom of it's usable torque curve.
WHICH brings the whole thing back to the ONLY reason the Honda wins is the gearing.
( and tyre radius gets included in that ).

It's a pointless comparison.
WHAT is more useful is to compare WHEN THE DRIVER MAXIMISES THE PERFORMANCE OF THE MACHINE .... and at that the Viper would drop three cogs, the Honda two and by the time the Honda has let the clutch UP the Viper's gone.

That's what torque and gears will do for you

Now get the comparison into real world on twisties and really making the MASS the key issue then the Honda can hold it's head up better. BUT it will never win in the straight line torque beyond 20mph - and even then FWD will struggle on grip

Thanks for your answer.
In fact, i didn't want to compare a Viper with a Civic (Viper is by far the better car without a doubt). I just wanted to know if the effect of gearing could be so important in automotive engineering.

[Matra et Alpine]

The answer is YES.
Or I'd say in this case to be more precise, a test should consider the PURPOSE of a gear before doing comparisons. 6th in a Viper is only about getting fuel consumption down using the tests and for getting the "big lazy feel" on freeway.
In design, the seclection of gearing is important and if you look at performance versus normal in the same range then you will see failry radical departures on gearing in the same gearbox.
If you want to investigate further. I would recommend NOT to do different car comparisons but look at those car RANGES over the years where the same 'box is used but different ratios selected to match different engines ( inc diesel ) and different customers requirements - sporty versus frugal.