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Thread: Does Honda Civic Type R pull better in 6th gear than the 8.3L Viper SRT/10?

  1. #16
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    This sort of thing would come up all the time when Car and Driver would publish there top gear acceleration tests (30-50mph, 50-70mph IIRC). With most 6spd transmissions top gear at 30mph means the motors are way down on their torque curves. This resulted in may "slow" cars posting better numbers than the Corvette simply because those slow cars weren't nearly at idle during the test. It also resulted in most cars with automatics dominating the results because those cars would downshift while the manuals were required to stay in top gear. Also, I believe both the Viper and Corvette top out in 5th, not 6th gear. The Corvette and Viper boxes (really the same basic box) are double overdrive units. So their 5th gear is roughly equivalent to what many other cars were running as a 5th (back when 5spd manuals were the norm and 6spds were rare). The 6th gear was an extra tall ratio for high way cruising only and was never meant for any sort of performance at any speed. It was tall enough that the car would hit its drag limit before the motor reached peak torque. In short the ratio was only good for mileage (which it does deliver). Compare that to the gearbox in the MX-5 Miata. The 5 spd and 6 spd covered roughly the same range and top gear in each resulted in similar engine RPM for a given road speed. Basically those boxes just gave you a tighter set of ratios. For the MX-5 the taller 6th would have been welcome.

    One final note, the 6spd auto in the Civic is geared rather like the Corvette. The top gear is very tall and only good for flat highway driving. That's no big deal since the car can quickly shift down to 5th for mild uphill sections. You get good highway mileage and decent passing power without a big downshift. Go Honda.

  2. #17
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    Thanks for your great points culver.

    I believe both the Viper and Corvette top out in 5th, not 6th gear.
    This is also what i believe because when i compare C6 Z06 with C6 ZR1,
    i see that they changed the ratio of sixth gear from 0.5 for Z06 to 0.67 for ZR1 and that i think is for ZR1 to hit top speed in 6th gear. They also made the 6th gear of ZR1 suitable for acceleration and hill-climbing without the need for downshifting.
    (80-120km/h in 6th gear 6.6s for ZR1) - More engine torque and shorter 6th gear
    (80-120km/h in 6th gear 10.6s for Z06) - Less engine torque and taller 6th gear
    Final drive ratio for both is the same. (3.42)

    Do you agree with me culver?
    Last edited by karabiner98k; 10-11-2010 at 01:27 AM.

  3. #18
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    culver, can't say for your market, but it's now pretty much the case over here that ALL cars top out their top speed in 5th gear - thus confirming the 6th is their to reduce fuel consumption on consumer/government tests
    "A woman without curves is like a road without bends, you might get to your destination quicker but the ride is boring as hell'

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matra et Alpine View Post
    culver, can't say for your market, but it's now pretty much the case over here that ALL cars top out their top speed in 5th gear - thus confirming the 6th is their to reduce fuel consumption on consumer/government tests
    not mine...
    "I find the whole business of religion profoundly interesting, but it does mystify me that otherwise intelligent people take it seriously." Douglas Adams

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matra et Alpine View Post
    culver, can't say for your market, but it's now pretty much the case over here that ALL cars top out their top speed in 5th gear - thus confirming the 6th is their to reduce fuel consumption on consumer/government tests
    I believe the S2000 and Miata/MX-5 top out in 6th. But my point was that it was less common to have a car top out in something other than top gear when GM first started using the 6spd in the Corvette (C4). And yes, I suspect most newer cars with the 6spd have it for top gear economy. Heck I recall VW labeling their early 80's 5 spds as 1-4, E where E was economy. I don't know how many of the modern 6spds are double overdrive units.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by karabiner98k View Post
    Thanks for your great points culver.



    This is also what i believe because when i compare C6 Z06 with C6 ZR1,
    i see that they changed the ratio of sixth gear from 0.5 for Z06 to 0.67 for ZR1 and that i think is for ZR1 to hit top speed in 6th gear. They also made the 6th gear of ZR1 suitable for acceleration and hill-climbing without the need for downshifting.
    (80-120km/h in 6th gear 6.6s for ZR1) - More engine torque and shorter 6th gear
    (80-120km/h in 6th gear 10.6s for Z06) - Less engine torque and taller 6th gear
    Final drive ratio for both is the same. (3.42)

    Do you agree with me culver?
    Without checking the numbers I bet they changed the top gear ratio so the car could hit 200 mph. The 5th ratio would probably hit redline before 200 while the old 6th gear would probably have been too steep. So I suspect you are right but I haven't checked. BTW, having driven a standard C6, on the freeway even in 6th you wouldn't call the car underpowered.

  7. #22
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    BTW, having driven a standard C6, on the freeway even in 6th you wouldn't call the car underpowered.
    Yes, that's true. Corvette's 6th gear is for economy but it is quite strong and doesn't feel lazy at all.

    Corvette C6 6.0 does 80-120km/h in 6th gear in 10.5s which is quite fast.

    Here is a test of it:
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by karabiner98k; 10-11-2010 at 07:08 AM.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by henk4 View Post
    not mine...
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  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by karabiner98k View Post


    I have two road tests which one of them is about Honda Civic Type R and another one relates to Dodge Viper SRT/10.
    German magazines measure in-gear times such as 80-120km/h in 6th gear to show that how the car performs in high gears and low revs.
    When it comes to 80-120km/h in 6th gear, Honda Civic Type R with a tiny and peaky 2.0L engine had better tractability than the Viper with a huge, torquey 8.3L engine. (80-120km/h in 6th gear for Honda is 12.3s and for Viper is 13.7s)
    According to test conditions the air temperature is 4 degrees for viper and the air pressure is 1016(mbar). For Honda the air temperature is 10 degrees and the air pressure is 1028(mbar).
    According to air density formula (p=P/R.T), the air density for Viper's test is better and Viper in that test had better volumetric efficiency.
    But despite better test conditions for Viper and a hugeeeee 6.3L difference in engine size and a massive 518nm difference in torque (711-193=518nm), Honda is still 1.4s faster in 6th gear.
    How is this possible???
    I am totally confused.
    Please someone enlighten me.
    Here are the tests:
    Honda Civic Type R
    http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/8...rvsgolfgti.jpg
    Dodge Viper SRT/10
    http://img301.imageshack.us/img301/6...0supertest.jpg
    Maybe.
    But this data is useless because of the gear ratios.

    Compare acceleration at high speeds, regardless of the gear used.
    For example compare 100-150 mph, regardless of the gear used.
    (If the type R can indeed reach 150 mph)
    Of course the Viper will kill the honda.

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