big engine and nothing else

[Guibo]

Originally posted by Nildo
In a previous thread no one responded to me when I mentioned the ferrari 575 and its power of 515 hp. Compared to the almost equal LS series engines with about 405 at best (we have a version with only 314). Power per litre in one is clearly greater than in the other. What does everyone think? Remember, I'm comparing motors, not the cars, so please don't spout any 4.2-60
or anything.

As for the Enzo/s2000 Ferrari stopped aiming for higher power due to the stress that 660 hp places on components. More power would be essentially useless unless the chassis and ancilliaries were reliably up to the task. Remember that it is a road car, so it was also subject to emissions regulations in about 120 countries or so.

Ferrari V12 vs. Chevrolet V8...simply a matter of throwing engineering and time (read: $$$) into an engine. What's the cost in R&D and production of that V12? How much would one cost? If BMW M5 V8's are anything to go by (around $30K), there's a good chance the Ferrari V12 goes for upwards of $50K. An LS6 crate motor can be had for as little as $7300. That is indicative of the time and effort that went into building it. A lot went into the Ferrari, considerably less went into building the Z06's. There's no arguing that. But there's also no arguing the LS6 is offering nearly 80% of the Ferrari's power at only a fraction of the cost.


OK, now we're getting somewhere with the Enzo and S2000 comparo. Stresses. But not on componentes and ancillaries (trust me, Ferrari has been in the business long enough to know that you need to have components with durability to match engine outputs). I'm talking about stresses *within* the engine itself.
Think of a tiny R/C car engine. Small components. Not a lot of reciprocating mass. Not a whole helluva lot of friction to worry about either. Hp/l? Around 450. 4-stroke motorcycle engine running on standard pump fuel? Larger, yet still not much of a problem to produce 140-150 hp/l. Get into a large automotive V10, and we're talking about heavier connecting rods, heavier crankshaft, heavier pistons (and the associated reciprocating mass). Get it to spin to 9000 rpm? Maybe. But not for long. You *could* do it, though, if you invest enough $$$. Feasible and productive to do so in a production road car? Probably not. The Viper as we know it would be dead. Which is why Dodge knows its limits. Which is why Ferrari knows its limits.
All of this refutes guyt x's assertion that the larger engine always has the advantage. It may have the advantage to ultimately produce more hp, yes. But in terms of producing stratospheric hp/l (as a direct linear relationship to displacement, with all considerations as to engineering and $$$ being equal), it is handicapped by the laws of physics. In short, it's easier to get high hp/l out of small engines than it is to get the same specific output out of much larger engines, all else being equal.
And there are example of this to point to throughout the automotive kingdom. The fact that the Acura RSX Type-S produces more hp/l than a 575M is purely academic. Ditto with the fact that a 2.0-liter Dodge Neon produces more hp/l than the Viper. None of this points to superior engineering whatsoever.

[Tahoeman]

Originally posted by Nildo


In a previous thread no one responded to me when I mentioned the ferrari 575 and its power of 515 hp. Compared to the almost equal LS series engines with about 405 at best (we have a version with only 314). Power per litre in one is clearly greater than in the other. What does everyone think? Remember, I'm comparing motors, not the cars, so please don't spout any 4.2-60
or anything.

your also comparing an engine that probably costs 50k to one that costs about 8-10k to manufacture, thats a far bigger factor

[guyt_x]

who cares what the viper costs !!!!!!!! or any other american car for that matter

THEY ARE ALL SUBSIDISED SO YANKS WILL BUY THEM

other wise americans would look else where

[PyroManiac]

Originally posted by guyt_x
who cares what the viper costs !!!!!!!! or any other american car for that matter

THEY ARE ALL SUBSIDISED SO YANKS WILL BUY THEM

other wise americans would look else where

Why don't you use a little bit of logic and come up with something that has a foundation, instead of that mindless bullshit you've been posting this entire time?

[Tahoeman]

Originally posted by guyt_x
who cares what the viper costs !!!!!!!! or any other american car for that matter

THEY ARE ALL SUBSIDISED SO YANKS WILL BUY THEM

other wise americans would look else where

dude, seriously, you're making a complete fool of yourself.

instead of making completely baseless dumbass comments like that, everyone here would have more respect for you if you would just admit you were wrong.

[Nildo]

Guy, americans build cars with american styling and power. That's why americans buy them.

The ferrari engine would be very expensive to manufacture, I won't refute that. But the reason why is simple economies of scale. If ferrari produced as many motors as toyota does for the camry then they would put effort into developing cheaper production methods, mass produce etc. Since they remain a niche model, there is also some marketing mistique to being able to claim that over half the engine is hand made.

like your response guibo, but when i talk about components i was actually referring to pistons, rods etc. It is true that a smaller engine is simpler to get higher hp/l. Look at the caterham r500! But the viper could still be improved on, which is my basic point. If anybody here disagrees and claims that the viper engine is as good as it ever could be then plain and simple they are dead wrong.

[PyroManiac]

Originally posted by Nildo
If anybody here disagrees and claims that the viper engine is as good as it ever could be then plain and simple they are dead wrong.

I totally agree, but theres a point to it, it allows room for the aftermarket and customers to improve on the Viper's engine. But believe or not, Dodge's engineers keep a very close relationship with the Viper owners, and they show their customers what THEY want, not what everyone else wants. If the customers WANT an improved engine, Dodge will show them an improved engine. If a majority of Viper customers want to see a brand new V10, they will get that brand new V10. I hear they keep closer ties with their customers than Ferrari does.

[Tahoeman]

Originally posted by Nildo
Guy, americans build cars with american styling and power. That's why americans buy them.

The ferrari engine would be very expensive to manufacture, I won't refute that. But the reason why is simple economies of scale. If ferrari produced as many motors as toyota does for the camry then they would put effort into developing cheaper production methods, mass produce etc. Since they remain a niche model, there is also some marketing mistique to being able to claim that over half the engine is hand made.

like your response guibo, but when i talk about components i was actually referring to pistons, rods etc. It is true that a smaller engine is simpler to get higher hp/l. Look at the caterham r500! But the viper could still be improved on, which is my basic point. If anybody here disagrees and claims that the viper engine is as good as it ever could be then plain and simple they are dead wrong.

no ones disagreeing that the viper engine could probably easily make double the horsepower if dodge put in the dev time and money. but if you've ever driven, or even read reviews of the car, its already damn hard to harness the power one. most magazines will tell you that you need driving lessons if you buy one.

i have a friend who works for a car shop, and all they do is buy wrecked exotic cars and rebuild them, and my friend drives them to auctions. hes driven everything from diablos to a 550 maranello. i asked him which one was the fastest? and he said the viper was the scariest thing hes ever driven, he said he was spinning tires in almost every gear, and he wasnt even driving it hard, he said it scared the living shit out of him. and this is comming from a guy whos driven just about every car you've ever dreamed of. of course it was only an RT/10 that he drove, not one of the new ones. bottom line, dodge could easily get more power out of that thing, but theres no need for it, hell look at SVS, they're working on a 1700 hp variation of the viper, 1700 hp!!! that engine has so much headroom its not even funny. no engine is ever close to as good as it could be out of the factory. no one ever said the viper engine was making as much power as it could, they opted to go the cheaper route and throw a big block in it. not because thats all they could do, but because they could do it. and because its a cheap and very very effective way to get gobs of power.

Car manufacturers have to be responsible you know, they cant just slap a 1000 hp motor in a car and sell it. Example? TVR, the TVR speed 12 weighs about 2000 lbs and had a severly underrated tag of 800 hp (it hit about 970 on the dyno before the dyno broke) if you go to TVR and try to buy one, they'll try their best to talk you out of it. to my knowledge there are maybe 3 people that own one.

for the last time, hp/l means jack shit, what matters is performance. hp/l doesnt measure any kind of performance. period. its just a worthless number, the only time it matters is when you live in a country with displacement tax, thats the ONLY time it matters, it doesnt make the engine better, higher hp/l is much easier to get out of smaller engines, its not some measure of how "smart" a car company is, i bet you didnt know that GM were actually the ones who invented the VTEC system that honda uses. why didnt they use it?? because theres no real need for it unless you really HAVE to use a small displacement engine. the same things from gas mileage to performance, size and weight can be matched by a simple pushrod design with more displacement

[Guibo]

Originally posted by Nildo
But the viper could still be improved on, which is my basic point. If anybody here disagrees and claims that the viper engine is as good as it ever could be then plain and simple they are dead wrong.

And as mentioned in the post above, that could apply to just about *any* stock production engine. People don't harp on the fact that the SL500 makes 60 hp/l. Yet they (not talking about you in particular, Nildo, but just the critics in general) slag the Viper for having the same specific output. All the while doing so with a larger engine and pushrods. Why the double standard?

And it's true about Viper owners pretty much dictating how the next generation Vipers evolve. Chrylser sent out questionnaires to previous Viper owners, when it set about making the SRT-10. Cupholders? They didn't want it. Traction control & electric nannies? They didn't want it. Any mention of DOHC and 4 valves per cylinder? Nope. They *wanted* it raw. They wanted it fairly unrefined. And that's pretty much why the SRT-10 is the way it is. Not because Dodge *couldn't*. A look at their lower models (Neon, 300M, etc.) tells you they could if they wanted to. Anyway, the entire first year run of SRT-10's gets sold to previous Viper owners and the rest is history.

On the issue of economy of scale...even if Ferrari could produce the same volume of engines as, say, Chevrolet does with its LS6, there's no way it will cost as little as the LS6. Now, if they *could*, then that would be some of the best manufacturing and engineering (in the sense of efficiency) that I have ever seen, and I will tip of the hat to Ferrari for doing it. But the fact still remains that they don't. So the Ferrari's output, while still exemplary considering its size, is not at all surprising, considering the money, time, and effort that goes into making it.
Recall that Gordon Murray had envisioned 300 McLaren F1's, but in the end, he could only build barely over 100 in total. Why's that? Fulfilling his goal of 300, in those economic times, would have been financial suicide. Simply not enough customers for a car built to that high standard willing to pay that price.

[VWPassat]

Originally posted by guyt_x
shame people lease dont embares yourself by making silly goose comments.

Ok, I had to step in here as I read one Moron from South Africa fight another one from Singapore. You say we are stupid Americans yet name the best car made in South Africa and Singapore, please. Oh, that’s right you don't drive cars built in your countries there aren't any. But if you did let us see what would they be, maybe a FORD since it is the best selling brand in the world. Now you do have European brands as well but lets see how many of your people can afford a MB, or BMW, since you both live in countries where the GDP is some place in the neighborhood of North Dakota I don't think many can. So they buy FORD or a VW. Yes, technology can yield GREAT things like your space programs, oh wait you don't have a space program, or your powerful military, oh I'm sorry you rely on the USA for that too, never mind I guess you cannot do a thing without the help of those stupid Americans can you, so make fun of the cars we drive, not all of us drive big American cars, not all of us watch the most boring racing in the world (nascar), some of us HAVE been to South Africa and think it is one of the most backward countries on the planet. But please don't ever generalize us as being stupid because unlike you I know where you live and I CAN get there one weeks pay and don't have to save for that once in a life time get away.

PS I am sorry moderator for the last comment it was just used to get my point across I mean no harm to anyone.

[motorhead]

Originally posted by VWPassat
Ok, I had to step in here as I read one Moron from South Africa fight another one from Singapore. You say we are stupid Americans yet name the best car made in South Africa and Singapore, please. Oh, that’s right you don't drive cars built in your countries there aren't any. But if you did let us see what would they be, maybe a FORD since it is the best selling brand in the world. Now you do have European brands as well but lets see how many of your people can afford a MB, or BMW, since you both live in countries where the GDP is some place in the neighborhood of North Dakota I don't think many can. So they buy FORD or a VW. Yes, technology can yield GREAT things like your space programs, oh wait you don't have a space program, or your powerful military, oh I'm sorry you rely on the USA for that too, never mind I guess you cannot do a thing without the help of those stupid Americans can you, so make fun of the cars we drive, not all of us drive big American cars, not all of us watch the most boring racing in the world (nascar), some of us HAVE been to South Africa and think it is one of the most backward countries on the planet. But please don't ever generalize us as being stupid because unlike you I know where you live and I CAN get there one weeks pay and don't have to save for that once in a life time get away.

PS I am sorry moderator for the last comment it was just used to get my point across I mean no harm to anyone.

why is singapore suddenly in the picture???

[VWPassat]

Sorry, it was because of maniac.

[henk4]

Originally posted by VWPassat
Ok, since you both live in countries where the GDP is some place in the neighborhood of North Dakota...

First one little thing, if the people in north dakota had the same per capita income as they have in Singapore they would be very, very rich.

A few other points as I missed out a couple of days to check the progress of this thread.
Has it occurred to anybody that pre-occupation with hp/litre may have to do with the fact that in motorsport classes are made up according to engine displacement? Participants are trying to get as much horse power our of a given displacement. Whether this is a meaningful parameter for every day cars is another matter, but this is what may have created the fuss. But I fully agree with those how poiny out that it is easier to extract a higher bhp/litre out of a small engine that out of a big one. (look what happened to Formula one when displacement limit went down from 3,5 litres to 3). Already at the end of the sixties the 1000 cc Formula 3 honda engine (DOHC, torsion bar valve springs), produced 150 horsepower.

One other thing is that we have been talking about driveability, and it may not have escaped to some of you that I am rather fond of modern diesel engines in this respect. I just read an interesting statistic about the Phaeton V10Tdi, (2500 kilo's) which needs 4,8 seconds to get from 80 to 120 (kph). Just for comparison a Viper, in fourth gear would take 5,3 seconds to achieve the same.

I'd rather leave the Ferrari engines out of the equation (or else compare the Modena V8 rather than the V12's). These are really small series masterpieces, not meant and designed for mass consumption and prices are certainly high but also contain a considerable element of prestige costs.

Lastly one thing. Ford is the owner of the Jaguar company, which do produce a nice series of DOHC V8's. As far as I know these engines haven't made it into USA made Ford products. Does anybody knows why that could be?

[BPx]

Originally posted by henk4
Lastly one thing. Ford is the owner of the Jaguar company, which do produce a nice series of DOHC V8's. As far as I know these engines haven't made it into USA made Ford products. Does anybody knows why that could be?

It's probably cheaper to use their Duratec or Zetec engines in the cars they sell here. I thought there were a few Fords with a Jag V8 in them, but I don't know for sure, never really checked.

[Nildo]

I agree with henk4. Diesels can be very nice to drive, in almost any traffic condition. And also lately some companies have made huge strides in increasing (oh no, I'm going to say it again!) HP/l produced form deisel motors. Many production diesels can now produce over 70 hp/l. Now I know that by itself that figure means nothing, but diesels already have sensational torque delivery, meaning the car can be both quite quick and a pleasant drive. Performance diesels have begun to really take off in Europe, and Ford announced that they will focus on diesel as the new performace motor of choice in the next decade. Does anyone know if Ford US has made the same commitment?

As for the Ford V8's it could be a marketing thing. Not too many jag V8s are the size of GM's (Fords main market competitor), which would, in some peoples eyes (remember the adage 'ain't n substitute for cubes') give GM the definite edge. I know this is very true of Australias V8 market. For Ford to appear competitive-never mind actual efficiency or anything-they need to have similarly large capacity 8s to GM.