Acura NSX Concept 2012

[Ferrer]

This forum is full of old people....its ridiculous....

Hybrid = bad, high tech = bad, power anything = bad...

Seriously, quit being so predictably old...

Also it is a V6.

Don't worry when we run out of petrol all of this will be irrelevant.

Meanwhile we'll continue to enjoy the smell of burnt rotten dinosaurs by utterly inefficient engines, if you don't mind.

[Kitdy]

This forum is full of old people....its ridiculous....

Hybrid = bad, high tech = bad, power anything = bad...

Seriously, quit being so predictably old...

Also it is a V6.

No. (More Later)

[f6fhellcat13]

And it sounds nothing like a V6, which makes me very suspicious.

Not necessarily a bad thing... The original NSX, the Busso V6, and only a handful more are the very short list of V6s whose sound I like.

This forum is full of old people....its ridiculous....
Hybrid = bad, high tech = bad, power anything = bad...
Seriously, quit being so predictably old...

You have a point; I cannot argue with that, but let me elucidate my own views beyond kneejerk reactions. I don't like hybrids, not because they're boring, but because they aren't environmentally friendly. If a car's raison d'être is enviromental friendliness and it fails at that, as well as all the usual categories on which a car is rated, it just seems stupid to me.

There are, inevitably, exceptions: the VW XL1 is extremely singleminded in its approach to low fuel consumption, and though it isn't really a saleable item, it represents forward progress because the technology is at more-or-less the cutting edge. The first Honda Insight is also a favorite of my for the same reasons and maybe Murray's T-Series cars will be in the future, as well. Normal hybrids, wherein an electric motor and battery pack are thrown into an otherwise conventional car, don't seem to be moving the game forward at all; with the XL1 or Insight, even if they aren't as environmentally friendly dust-to-dust as a normal car, they have shifted the technological goalposts. I also like the Tesla Model S, but I'm not sure why.

Those are my opinions on "normal" passenger hybrids. Supercars'** reason for being, on the other hand, is flamboyance, be it speed, looks, noise, technology, and to a lesser extent price. If slapping on some electric motors and batteries doesn't really enhance those characteristics, what's the point? Now, you could reasonably argue that they do increase speed, but I would argue that a lighter more gasoline-powered 918 or whatever would be faster. However, I will concede that hybrid supercars have the necessary componentry to be technologically extravagant. This, I think, is were this car will be made or broken; if is not technologically-cool it will fail my test because it isn't particularly good looking or sounding.

**Kitdy and I have often bickered about the difference between sports, super, and hyper cars; I used to maintain that it was purely a monetary distinction, but now, sadly, I am coming 'round to nearer Kitdy's view. Sportscars are driver's cars, manual everything and experientially-focused. Hyper and supercars' only distinction is one of price; the goal of a hyper/supercar is to be made of, as the Top Gear boys say, improbable numbers. In this slightly-different view, the McLaren F1 is a hyper-superdy-duperty sportscar, because the impression I've gotten is that it was designed with the driver in mind. Additional super sportscars would be the Ferrari 430/458, high-end 911s, and possibly hi-po Corvettes. The Jag XJ220, on the other hand is very much the supercar because it was miserable to drive, despite yielding impressive numbers. Others in this mold: the Ferrari Enzo, Veyron, etc...

With the might of Honda, albeit modern-day Honda, behind it, I think this car can have some novel technology and perhaps make the grade, though I'm not holding my breath. It will probably end up like its hybrid supercar compatriots the 918, P1, and Ye Olde Ferrarie. These cars all strike me as conventional hybrids, but MOAR. The 918 is the one I am most interested in and I eagerly await it being fully fleshed out for the public to see, but until then, I will labor under the assumption that it is just a really fast car mysteriously laden with batteries and electromotive units.

That all being said, technology is a double-edged sword. I'm sure we car all think of cars that include high technology to their detriment. I'm not just talking about British cars trying to wrangle and contain the evil Prince of Darkness, Lucas, and imprison him within their wiring. Technology often anesthetizes the driving experience to a fault. Obviously cars like the Atom or whatever are too raw for everyday use, though bikers somehow manage to get by, and those sensations need to be numbed to have a practically-usable car, but, for as much as we whinge about technology for the sake of whining, those stimuli are the reason we enjoy driving cars. If you dull them down too far, what's the point? It takes the experience from wrestling a shark (in the Atom), to a nice run on a nice day (in a sportscar), to an unintentional afternoon nap where you wake up groggy and wondering where you are (in a sense-depriving modern transportation module). At some point, a car becomes so boring that taking the train or bus becomes more interesting, and we can't have that.

TLDR: Yes, I'm old and no, I'm not holding my breath for the NSX.

EDIT:

No. (More Later)

Sniped!

[Ferrer]

I actually like the Honda CR-Z.

I must be the only one because nobody else seems to do and the offers from Honda themselves on the car are astonishing...

[Kitdy]

Ninja'd.

Also, you spelled labour wrong.

More to come; at work.

[RacingManiac]

Don't worry when we run out of petrol all of this will be irrelevant.

Meanwhile we'll continue to enjoy the smell of burnt rotten dinosaurs by utterly inefficient engines, if you don't mind.

I am not interested in hybrids because they are green, I am interested in hybrids because they can offer abilities that was not possible/easily implemented in regular cars.

I don't think the assumptions of "sure hybrids are fast but if you make it simpler/lighter it'll be just as fast". I think the current crop of hybrid racecars, even in their highly restricted trim, are already eclipsing that of the regular cars. F1 cars are making the extra KERS complexity and weight work, and without it they are definitely slower. And so are the Le Mans cars. The Porsche GT3R Hybrid, have won head to head races out right against their non-hybrid counterpart, by not only being more efficient but outright faster.

In the case of the supercars, utilizing what is state of the art should be a no brainer. They are supposed to be a showcase of what cars are aspiring to be, and I think the level of performance offered by the next breed of hypercars are simply ridiculous. And I'd argue going electric actually simplifies some of these technology. GTR's insanely complicated drive train, with its collections of driveshafts, transfer case, differentials, are used to achieve pretty insane amount of vehicle dynamic controls. The NSX probably can achieve similar capability, without all the mechanical bits, and their weight, energy losses, and moving parts. Also in some respect the NSX will probably eclipse even the capability of 918, since unlike 918's racing forebearer. It would not have 2 electric motors in the front that can deliver torque to individual wheels to achieve cross axle torque vectoring, which NSX will.

There are cars I think simpler is better. Cars like Miata or S2000 or something never need such technologies, they don't need the complexity or the weight. At the same time they don't demand the price or deliver the raw performance. But they are made to be fun, and accessible for all. But when you are dealing with brand defining supercars, why not make the car that are loaded to the gill with whats possible.

Also seriously, aside from henk4, Matra and the likes, you people are probably younger than I am....

[NSXType-R]

My problem with the NSX isn't that it's a hybrid, it's because Honda has had a terrible track record with cars lately.

There was this interview with Honda's head where he personally canceled the V10 FR NSX and the large V8 RWD Acura sedan.

Sure, it makes no sense to make a halo car, but why did Toyota do it with the LF-A?

Acura's lineup is terrible- the RLX doesn't bring anything new to the table- no one wants a V6 in a large luxury sedan, advanced 4WD system or not.

And no one wants the ILX and ZDX either.

The only cars that do sell in the Acura range are the MDX, RDX and TSX.

And the TSX is going away.

This is the link with a translated interview with Honda's head if anyone was interested.

Temple of VTEC Rumors and News - Latest inverview with Mr. Ito, Honda's CEO

If anything, the insane price of the Porsche 918 makes me more confident in its eventual performance and as such, I actually like the 918.

I used to think that hybrids were bullshit and all, but like you said, the GT3 RS proved itself in racing. But with Honda's misguided direction on cars, I wouldn't be surprised if the NSX was more geared for efficiency than performance. Like you said, the GT-R has a complex 4WD system, but Honda also gave us the ZDX and Crosstour.

On the other hand, I am also curious about the 918 in the sense that what would happen if it were to be built without a hybrid system? We may actually get that, but there's probably no way in hell Honda would make that. It's the same question- what would happen if I got a CR-Z without a hybrid? I'd be curious in a CR-Z Si with no hybrid and say a S2000 engine. Honda would never build that.

And yes, I probably am younger than you. I just turned 23 last month.

[Kitdy]

RM, remove minimum weights from those racing classes and all the hybrid technology will become irrelevant in a fingersnap. I share the opinion of hellcat in saying these new supercars would be faster without hybrids.

Hybridism is in, so it is being used. I maybe young, but I don't HAVE to like contemporary cars and their technology. I am becoming less and less interested in every new car press release I read.

[Ferrer]

As I said I like the CR-Z. I know it's not perfect but it is an interesting take on the fun green ecological car. Whether this is supposed to be more economical or more environmentally friendly, I don't know, but if a time comes where everyone is driving Priuses (or whatever the plural is) and hybrid Lexuses (again, plural?) I'd be happy with a CR-Z.

However, I don't think this is the problem. The problem is that technology has advanced so much that performance has gotten ridiculous. So ridiculous in fact that you'd have to have the driving abilities of Sebastian Vettel to be able to extract the potential of this new sportscars and supercars.

And it doesn't even there. Because the current society's fight against speed of any case makes it even harder. Because what's the point of having super high performance vehicle if when you use said performance you'll be fined, lose your lincense, wife, family, job, house and you'll end up being an alcoholic peasant lying on the ground begging for money?

I've been recently driving the Mercedes-Benz A220 CDI and, silly ride and stupid handling aside, in the real world this car has all the performance you could possibly need. Furthemore as you all know I was done for speeding I was driving a 126bhp car. So, being honest, why would you want to have 400, 500 or more horsepowers?

(The above only has an exception for me, which is if the cars has other abilities beyond the actual horspeower figures/performance , case in point, the recently discussed Challenger SRT-8)

[RacingManiac]

RM, remove minimum weights from those racing classes and all the hybrid technology will become irrelevant in a fingersnap. I share the opinion of hellcat in saying these new supercars would be faster without hybrids.

Hybridism is in, so it is being used. I maybe young, but I don't HAVE to like contemporary cars and their technology. I am becoming less and less interested in every new car press release I read.

GT3R Hybrid weighs more than the non-hybrid counter part...still faster...

Also, watching the evolution of the Formula Student Electric, where now they are lighter, more powerful and faster than their gas counterpart. I don't think the weight issue will play in the equation much longer. Eventually when you are matching capability of what the electrics can do quite modularly, the traditional cars will ends up being heavier.

You don't have to like modern car and technology, but progress is progress...

And to knock Honda down because their current track record is pretty silly. Before Nissan make the R35 GTR, regardless what you think of the car(heavy, bloated, detached...blah blah freaking blah), the car is fast. From the same company that makes a bunch of cheap FWD cars with the same V6 engine with CVT transmission. Also this NSX is going to be out of Honda US, designed here, made here. The same people who would bother to put a LMP2 spec engine in a minivan. Or race a Si in their off hours in Continental Tire challenge.

Also the technologies here, or in other electrification of cars, won't just stop at Super cars. Think about this, eventually when you have electricfication of more cars, FWD, RWD, AWD is not going to be that big of an issue, since your packaging freedom will be expanded considerably. Yaw control, torque vectoring are just lines of codes, instead of complex mechanical components. You can have commuter cars with RWD with all the same kind of vehicle dynamics potential as a supercar, just slower.

[Kitdy]

Still though, how much if a role does regulations play in the relative speed of FSE compared to FSAE? Would any (relative) no limits race car have hybridization?

[RacingManiac]

The FSE cars are limited to roughly the same power as the combustion cars, but not all the combustion cars can make that kind of power. IIRC Teams like TU Delft's car, have capability of running up to 110kw of power, but are limited to about 70 in race trim. You'll need a hell of a combustion car to make that kind of power. Even running the combustion car without restrictor though, you'll be hard pressed to make 110kw from a 600cc bike engine....

Delft used to make sub 300lb combustion cars, they are making 320lb FSE cars, with aero, AWD, and torque vectoring. You can't make a combustion car with that kind of capability at that weight level...

The Electric racing car's limit is like that of the road car. Range. More range, needs more battery, and gets heavier. As the battery technology improves, that thing will be less of an issue. At which point it becomes how you going to "refuel". In series like Formula Student, where distance is short, they are already going to be faster than regular cars. Currently they don't race them in the same class, but the ourright faster cars are all the FSE cars. Fastest bike at this year's Pikes Peak was an electric bike. Tajima already matched his gasoline car's speed in his 2nd year running the electric car. Peugeot would've had hybrid(and diesel) on the Loeb's car if they actually have time and money to incorporate it. In racing its all about make the most of what you have. Running hybrid gets you the ability to save energy from slowing the car down to make the car go faster. Makes perfect sense....

Also talking about minimum weight, we can talk about what's being limited on the current hybrid also. Something like R18 Etron, its limited to no torque vectoring, limited to defined regen area, energy recovered, and deployment speed. Do you think it can't be made even faster by allowing all those? Its already faster...

[NSXType-R]

You don't have to like modern car and technology, but progress is progress...

And to knock Honda down because their current track record is pretty silly. Before Nissan make the R35 GTR, regardless what you think of the car(heavy, bloated, detached...blah blah freaking blah), the car is fast. From the same company that makes a bunch of cheap FWD cars with the same V6 engine with CVT transmission. Also this NSX is going to be out of Honda US, designed here, made here. The same people who would bother to put a LMP2 spec engine in a minivan. Or race a Si in their off hours in Continental Tire challenge.

Also the technologies here, or in other electrification of cars, won't just stop at Super cars. Think about this, eventually when you have electricfication of more cars, FWD, RWD, AWD is not going to be that big of an issue, since your packaging freedom will be expanded considerably. Yaw control, torque vectoring are just lines of codes, instead of complex mechanical components. You can have commuter cars with RWD with all the same kind of vehicle dynamics potential as a supercar, just slower.

You say that Nissan was boring before the GT-R, but they still had the 350Z when virtually no other Japanese car maker was making interesting cars (2002). Remember, when the 350Z came out, the RX-7 stopped production in Japan, the Supra had long stopped selling (in the USA) and there was no WRX STi. The only other true RWD Japanese cars would have been the S2000 and the Miata. And the NSX, which at that point was far, far too expensive. The Prelude at that point was gone.

Your only real options for something cheap, somewhat fast and Japanese was a Toyota Celica or RSX. Or if you had a little more money maybe a Acura CL (also discontinued without replacement) or a Lexus SC430 (a lot more money).

Acura killed the RSX not too long after 2002 and decided against replacing it. Ditto with the S2000. Honda makes no sense, they had a great lineup entering the year 2000 and within a decade becomes a shell of its former self.

That's true, progress is progress...

But Honda America also gave us the ZDX and Crosstour. I know the NSX isn't out yet, there's still the potential for it to be awesome.

[RacingManiac]

I don't know, Civic SI is not a bad car at all....not many cars you can get in US for less than 25k that has 6 speed manual and limited slip diff as standard...And its still around.

Honda was never big in RWD sports cars(or RWD anything). S2000 and NSX was more of an anomaly than the norm. The lack of S2K replacement is a shame, but it is a lot harder for Honda to make something like that since they have no product that shares those design. Nissan is still milking the platform that started in 350Z now.

You are not giving Honda's lineup enough credit. I'd say before 2008 the lineup isn't bad at all. TL-S is not a bad car, and despite being FWD, its not a boring car to drive and handles well. SH-AWD is not just a marketing gimmick, the system is probably more advanced than whats used on the Haldex based system in the VAG cars. They just don't use them in enough of their products. Enthusiasts products, aside from companies like Porsche, are going to be the rarity in any company. Whats actually a good enthusiast car from Toyota before Toyobaru? Does Surbaru make any other car that's interesting to a car guy aside from WRX/STI? Does Mitsubishi make anything outside of Evo?

[NSXType-R]

I don't know, Civic SI is not a bad car at all....not many cars you can get in US for less than 25k that has 6 speed manual and limited slip diff as standard...And its still around.

Honda was never big in RWD sports cars(or RWD anything). S2000 and NSX was more of an anomaly than the norm. The lack of S2K replacement is a shame, but it is a lot harder for Honda to make something like that since they have no product that shares those design. Nissan is still milking the platform that started in 350Z now.

You are not giving Honda's lineup enough credit. I'd say before 2008 the lineup isn't bad at all. TL-S is not a bad car, and despite being FWD, its not a boring car to drive and handles well. SH-AWD is not just a marketing gimmick, the system is probably more advanced than whats used on the Haldex based system in the VAG cars. They just don't use them in enough of their products. Enthusiasts products, aside from companies like Porsche, are going to be the rarity in any company. Whats actually a good enthusiast car from Toyota before Toyobaru? Does Surbaru make any other car that's interesting to a car guy aside from WRX/STI? Does Mitsubishi make anything outside of Evo?

True, the Civic Si is pretty sweet, but the Civic also tried to be really cheap the last time it was redesigned and didn't sell too well, which meant it needed an emergency redesign. The Honda Fit is a pretty sweet small car though. The Accord is probably the strongest product in Honda's lineup, as well as the Pilot and the CR-V. The SUVs I'm not interested in though.

The TL was indeed a very nice product until they hit it hard with the ugly stick.

You're right though, besides the GT-86 Toyota doesn't really make anything cheap and interesting. Maybe the IS250.

Subaru makes the Legacy, which is a pretty sweet sporty luxury sedan. And they even had the crazy Forester STI in Japan.

Mitsubishi is a lost cause, once the Evolution stops being produced they'll cease to be relevant.

But to be honest, there were excellent products in the range, Honda just stopped caring about following up with a replacement.