Politics

[henk4]

Originally posted by Misho
Please inform us more about the so-called "sad" history of Africa.

By the way , Canada is undoubtly the best place on EARTH !!

I have just returned from a two and a half week business trip to Nigeria and Ghana. As I could stay in nice hotels I personally felt OK and relatively safe but that is not the case for 95% of the population in these countries. in particular Nigeria.
I think it might be good for a couple of contributors to this thread to make a similar visit. It really could be an eye-opener.
It just so happened that I was in Abuja, the capital of Nigeria at the same day George W. flew in and I just missed his press conference at the Hilton. He did not even wanted to stay a night there. Irony of it all was that the access road to the airport is aptly called the Bill Clinton Avenue, and after GW left, there were no attempts to rename it.

Why did GW go there? Not to try to set up a peace keeping force in Liberia, but to secure that the forecast that within the next ten years 25% of the USA's imported oil is originating from West Africa, will materialise.

I also took some of my time to read the book "Stupid White Men", written by Michael Moore. Should be available in the USA and provides a wealth of information about the current Government of the most powerful state on earth. Recommended reading!!

[Misho]

Thank you henk4 for your input.

[henk4]

Originally posted by Misho
Thank you henk4 for your input.

Visited Canada three times too, but as a tourist. It is indeed one of the greatest countries, and were it not for some economic setbacks in the early fifties I would have been Canadian myself.

[JAC]

Well I've just finished reading this thread & found it both funny & pathetic in equal proportions...

dont know what happened to this "chevysucks" character (off to feed the cows perhaps) but he seems to be the type of American the world hates....
dont get me wrong, I have no problems with Americans in general, but every country has its redneck element, & chevy sucks...you are on top of the steaming pile!!!

I'm sick of people like you telling the world that America is its saviour & that we should all bow down & be thankful...The sensible world knows that all the US Government is doing is cleaning up its own mess! Why should we be grateful for that???

Your Government helped put madmen like Saddam in power in the first place..(How many US personnel have been killed by Iraqi's brandishing weapons they bought from the US?), then proceed to tell the world how brilliant they are for bringing him down!
Chevysucks, you are either very young or very blind (call that patriotism if you like) & I think maybe, you should quit talking politics & concentrate on discussing something you know about...cars

American ones only of course

[crisis]

Welcome JAC. This thread has had its moments. I am not an apoligist for the US but have no time for simplistic "war for oil type comments." To say that "your govenrment" helped put madmen like Saddam in power is like saying the current government of Germany killed millions of jews. The govenrment of the time backed Saddam against what they percieved as a larger threat that was Iran. With hindsight we can now see Saddam as a madman. How many examples are there of this in history? It doesnt mean, however , that they should not act against the same person they saw as an ally, if he becomes dangerous. I dont know if America should be the worlds policeman but Im also sure I dont want anyone else. Russia, China, India, Pakistan? Any country who takes on the task need the military clout AND restraint. The alternative is to let the governments of each country rule their people in the way they see fit. Nigeria, Germany (1940 style), North Korea, Iran, Iraq?

[ozexige]

Originally posted by JAC
Well I've just finished reading this thread & found it both funny & pathetic in equal proportions...
..............
...you are on top of the steaming pile!!!
...............

Chevysucks, you are either very young or very blind (call that patriotism if you like) & I think maybe, you should quit talking politics & concentrate on discussing something you know about...cars

American ones only of course

I'm sorry, but you just shot yourself in the foot jak -
with a Styer (look it up) -
any simple viewing of news footage shows Iraqi weapons to be Russian - AK's etc.
AND
anyone who starts off a statement with ..
"don't get me wrong, I have no problems......"
HAS A PROBLEM!
You are the typical anti-american Australian - ignorant of ALL the facts but willing to post an 'opinion' anyway.
You can have your opinions but don't assume to speak for the 'sensible' people of the world.
If you need a group to back you up, join Guyt's - but I'm afraid you might be too late.

[JAC]

any simple viewing of news footage shows Iraqi weapons to be Russian - AK's etc.

Which news footage would this be then ozexige? CNN or similar?
You need to do some more research....Yes the Iraqi's used Russian weapons, scuds, tanks etc....but what were the weapons the world feared them using most? Chemical weapons....& who helped them set up their chemical weapons programme (not too mention conventional weapons) during the Iran/Iraq war? the US.

If you read my post again you will see I was criticizing the US Government, not its people, so I am not anti-American (I criticize
the Australian Gov't as well, does that make me Anti-Australian?)
and one other thing, I am not Australian either...wrong on both counts

ps. so what does Styer mean? I didnt look it up..

crisis..thanks for your reply...
I agree that support for Hussein at the time would have seemed the safer option, but when you consider that Hussein was already using Chemical Weapons not only on the Iranians, but on his own people as well, not too mention committing human right abuses, (both of which the US knew about) at the time the US where dealing with him, you would have to say it was a serious error of judgement on their part....?

I agree you shouldnt blame present day Governments for the mistakes of the past, but the man they sent to do business with Saddam Hussein at the time was none other than???
Donald Rumsfeld (sp?)

[crisis]

I saw an intersting on SBS Cutting Edge last night about the propoganda the US used to convince the world to go to war with Iraq. Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz in particular do not shape up so well. It was a doc produced in Germany so its their slant on things but it exposed via ex CIA and US government people the agenda that the US and in particular these guys have. According to the report almost all of the "evidence" regarding nuclear and biological weapons was dodgy. It seems the WTC attack gave these guys the public backing to do what they wanted to 10 years previous. The philosophy behind the US's attitude of world order is less comforting if whay this report said was true.

[JAC]

Didn't see that myself but I've read similar stories...

Its the side of the US Government that no one wants to see
(many other Governments for that matter, I saw a documentary about the German Government & its dealings with Hussein in the '80's (think it was the '80's)..They actually helped set up Iraq's first nuclear reactor...)

I had a day off sick during the last war & thought I'd watch some
daytime TV..Oprah Winfrey (i was sick remember ) was doing an expose on her show about the US Govt's dealings with Saddam...they showed a photo of a smiling Rumsfeld shaking hands with Saddam during their talks during the Iran/Iraq war, then had a panning shot of Oprahs audience & you should have seen the look of shock on their faces..! they didnt know a thing about it....

[crisis]

I think I saw the same doco on Germanys involvement. France was in it up to their eyeballs as well. Makes their reluctance to become involved in cleaning up the mess a little interesting.

[crisis]

Date Published: 22/03/2003
>Author: William Rivers Pitt
The ominously named Project for the New American Century (PNAC) desires
>and demands one thing - the establishment of a global US empire to bend
>the will of all nations. Created in 1997, the Washington-based
>think-tank chafes at the idea that the US, the last remaining
>superpower, does not do more by way of its economic and military force
>to bring the rest of the world under the umbrella of a new
>socio-economic Pax Americana.
>
>The essence of PNAC's ideology can be found in a report it produced in
>September 2000 entitled Rebuilding America's Defenses: strategy, forces
>and resources for a new century. The report outlined what is required
>of the US to create the global empire of the think-tank's dreams.
>According to PNAC, the US must:
>
>o reposition permanently based forces to southern Europe, south-east
>Asia and the Middle East; o modernise US armed forces by (among other
>things) enhancing its fighter-aircraft, submarine and surface-fleet
>capabilities; o develop and deploy a global missile defence system, and
>develop a strategic dominance of space;
>o control the `international commons' of cyberspace; and
>o increase defence spending to a minimum of 3.8 per cent of the country's
>GDP - up from the 3 per cent currently spent.
>
>Most ominously, PNAC's document described four `core missions' for the
>US military. The two central requirements are for US forces to `fight
>and decisively win multiple, simultaneous major theatre wars' and for
>them to `perform the "constabulary" duties associated with shaping the
>security environment in critical regions'. One way or another, US armed
>forces must establish American dominance for all to see.

Just some edited highlights Rumnsfeld, Wolfowitz etc are founders of the Project for the New American Century .

Nice

[Ricardo]

I've been passing my eyes trough some of your replies and allow me to say some things:

America IS a great country. No doubt about it. But they must no forget that it was created with people from many countries seeking new oportunities.

About terrorism I think America's foreign politics are the main problem. To undestrand what I'm saying you should put yourself in their position and must not forget that most of these people are illiterate and subjected to religious leaders unscrupulous making doubtful interpretations of the religious books.

Considering what I've said before, democracy is almost impossible in this countries due to the history of violence they have and neither America or any other country should force to impose democracy. Talibans maintained the power in Afganistan because they where violent.

You don't have to go to middle east to know that America is not seen with good eyes. Generally speaking a great percentage of Portugal population think America is just a new form of a Roman Empire but with stupid people in the governement and upright population. How can you take decisions about foreign countries if the majority of the congressman haven't visited anything beside Canada or Hawai or Mexico?

America HAS interest in Israel and if you defend so firmly human rights why did you support the creation of Israel after WW2? Jewish were a problem. Where would the allies put thousand of jewish without a country? After that until today USA has shamefuly supported Israel millitary and financially. And the reason behind all this? Millitary bases strategically situated in the middle east.

The best cars are Honda's racing cars followed by German technology (Mercedes is very popular in america) and finally American cars. American cars are Europe's 80's cars. Big cubic inches engines, low power and poor efficiency - low mpg. Don't forget that in America gas is 4 times cheaper than in Europe (Portugal, for example) - that's why you don't have to worry developing your cars.

If the greatest ambition for you is to go to USMC after you turn 18 to fight then you are no better than arabian terrorists that see in violence the only way to defend their right.
It's sad.

[Misho]

Ricardo , man you really messed up my head switching from politics to racing cars back to politics !!!

[crisis]

Im not sure what constitutes a "great country". The US like everyone else acts in its own best interest. The fact that it has the power to get its own way means it has more influence than everyone else. I find much from the US objectionable. I also like quite a lot. Whatever their foreign policy does not vindicate the physcos that kill innocent people in the name of their religion. The leaders prey on the dissilusionment and jealousy of the poor and under privaleged and turn them into corpses. You dont see the leaders driving the bomb packed vans to paradise. As for the return of the Jews to Isreal after WWII, you can blame the colonialisation of the Middle East by the UK, France , Portugal, Spain and every other European country that took part during that era for creating the mess. What we have now is to deal with it. While differences exist in wealth, power and religion one could be excused for despairing.

[Egg Nog]

The United States has soooo much potential to be better than it is, if only people would realise that Ralph Nader isn't some hippie tree-hugger. I've heard a few of his speeches and what he has to say about American healthcare, the economy, and the distriubtion of wealth is utter genius. If elected, he plans to establish a free healthcare system much like the one in Canada (probably even better).

He explained how the economy is always said to be booming, but it has relatively little effect on the middle and lower class. The wealthiest 1% of Americans have a net worth equal to the bottom 96%. Bill Gates himself has a net worth that is on par with that of the entire bottom 45%. Yeah, that's 120,000,000 people.

Anyway, it's time to realise that there's more than two parties for you guys to vote for...