Topgear Settles Supercar Debate!

[gtrjazz]

[QUOTE=udip21]Topgear has finally settled the debate as to which car is fastest around a racing track. The latest power lap time has revealed that the Ferrari Enzo has toppled the Porsche Carrera GT by an comfortable 0.8
secs (for those that believe that is small, i am sorry but you are rustic about racing). At Nardo, in a test conducted by Auto Motor and Sport, the Enzo comfortably beat the Carrera and the SLR as it went upto 355 kmph (221.8 mph). The Carrera and SLR both managed only 334 kmph (208.75 mph). And unlike many other claims, the Enzo was the most stable at top speed.

Nardo is a big track with banked bends used for OEMs for VMax work so not a true test of ride and handling. I watched the SLR being benchmarked against the Enzo in Spain I could see no reason for people thinking the Ferrari was better.

[udip21]

For that realm of money, Ferrari can get away with any amount of price they want to put because they will manage to sell them anyway.

[udip21]

One of the things that seems to confuse us is why the Zonda is over 4 secs slower than the Enzo over the Topgear track given the fact that it is lighter and has more torque. Of course, it has a bigger engine but unfortunatrly, it has been poorly engineered (77 bhp/lit) and the only thing saving its grace is its noise. The Enzo on the other hand has the most efficient engine of the lot (110 bhp/ltr). On the straights , the Zonda would be better only at the fag-end of the speed spectrum; somwwhere around 320 kmph.


One thing that many manufacturers manipulate to dupe the commoners is acceleration times. the Ford GT can do 0-60 times almost as well as the Enzo but then again, it is slower around a track. The part used here is the gear ratios, which suit it for acceleration.
This means that while they may be close to reaching 100 kmph, the Ford GT will take ages to reach 300 kmph and even if it ddoes, it will struggle even more to reach its top speed of 312 kmph, which is better than the SLR or the Carrera GT. eople generally pay attention to only accelration times and that is where they get tricked. In that context, the Enzo and Carrera are genuine and they pack performance akin to racing cars, no cheating or deceiving.


And speaking about the Zonda, its handling properties are inferior to the Enzo's and it lacks the paddle-shifter too. Lighter cars have better accelerations and not necessarily better handling. Handling depends on a lot of factors which the Enzo boasts of having the best. Cars are much easier on straights then corners and that is where driver involvement comes into play. The driver cannot do much if the car does not allow it to. Enzo assists the driver with its ASR and Race settings, the Zonda has none of which.


Hockenheim , i believe, will actually favour the Enzo. The enzo likes fast straights and that in turn will actually demolish anyone else. Also, i wouldnt be surprised if the Koenigsegg or the Zonda will actually topple the CArrera or the SLR around Hockenheim. The straights will give them an advantage, even over the Enzo. While the Enzo might crawl all the way up in the corners, there is a queston mark whether the Carrera and the SLR might be able to retain their podium steps there.

Old Nurburgring will be a closer call and i wish the best car to win.

[udip21]

*CORRECTION
The TOP SPEED of Ford GT is 212 mph.

[Mustang]

hehe wait till they get the CCR there

[udip21]

I also appreciate the SLR's heroic performance.

[PerfAdv]

In the end its the most expencive all the way.

So, what should the price cutoff be? Maybe a price/performance quotient with which to compare. The problem is that after a certain point it's very difficult to counter the laws of physics. You have to use expensive materials and invent technology which cost so much more than recycling it.

Quotient example: (info from: http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/forum...read.php?t=774)
1996 Acura Integra GS-R (0-60 7.1) (1/4 mile 15.5) - approx price $20K
1996 Acura NSX (0-60 5.2) (1/4 mile 13.8) - approx price $80K

0-60 the Integra costs 2816.9/sec of acceleration
0-60 the NSX costs 15,384.6/sec of acceleration
Integra costs 18.3% of the NSX's cost per second of acceleration yet it costs 25% of MSRP. Integra has better 0-60 quotient.

1/4 mile the Integra costs 1290.3/sec of acceleration
1/4 mile the NSX costs 5797.1/sec of acceleration
Integra costs 22.6% of the NSX's cost per second of acceleration yet it costs 25% of MSRP. Integra has better 0-60 quotient.


Another way to look at it:

NSX is 26% faster 0-60 than the Integra but costs 400% more.
NSX is 11% faster in the 1/4 mile than the Integra but costs 400% more.

Clearly the NSX is a bad value if you look at it this way. But no one will pick an Integra in a race against the NSX. Doesn't matter how much it costs, it's still faster.

[jcp123]

im going to have to look up this Zonda car. never heard of it in my life before i came here.

[Ferrari Tifosi]

From fast-autos.net the 99 Pagani Zonda pulls .93Gs on the skid pad. Thats a joke for how much that car costs. And the SLR pulls an estimated .95, still bad for the price, but better than the Zonda.
And bigger engine doesnt mean faster car. The SLR still has more hp and torque, and is still all around quicker/faster in acceleration.

That lateral acceleration number for the Zonda is quite shocking, since the Enzo makes about .1 g higher at about 1.03 g's.

[Luciferous]

Nurburgring: Fastest Car: Porsche Carrera GT
7 minutes:32.44 seconds.
Average Speed: 164 km/h

In a test done at Nardo between supercars including both the Carrera GT and Enzo, the Carrera beat the Enzo in lap times, 53.9 seconds versus Enzo's 55.0 seconds. The Enzo hit back with better acceleration and beat the Carrera'a top speed of 331km/h with a convincing 352km/h. But the Carrera beat the Enzo in the breaking distance for 240-0km/h with the Carrera GT 191m to Enzo's 215m. As you see above, the Carrera GT is also now the fastest car around the Nurburgring, as driven by German Sport magazine's Horst Van Saurma, resetting the track record around the famous 22.6 kilometre track.

No but youre right, the Enzo is CLEARLY the better car by an absolute mile.

Fanboys.

[Matra et Alpine]

So, what should the price cutoff be? Maybe a price/performance quotient with which to compare. .

Interesting proposal.

But like bhp/litre or bhp/ton some will consider it pointless.
I liek th ecompairsons it turned up though

Also when you look at price you need to ensure there aren't market, currency or tax (import/export) skewing the numbers.

So their would need to be an accepted way to balance all of these out.
Otherwise you get "Car X is cheaper than Y in country Z so is better value" and yet the prices for the same cars in country W are the other way round hence making the original comment wrong !!

So for that we would need another proposal ...
the LOWEST price against reference currency in any country used as the benchmark.
Then all we have to agree is the 'reference currency'
The days of the dollar's stability are long gone, so which one ??

But we're adding more analyatical information to make balanced choices when in reality some will stay blind to the consideration of differences outside of their own backyard. So I suspect all the proposals will be ignored. Cant' have the "real world" altering perceptions

[Matra et Alpine]

Nurburgring: Fastest Car: Porsche Carrera GT
7 minutes:32.44 seconds.

Radical SR3 holds the production car lap record for Nordschleife at 13 seconds FASTER than the Porsche 7:19
It generated over 2G on the corners
AND there's a faster one coming as soon as the V8 shakedown is completed !!
Also the SR3 record was done on ONE LAP with no previous flying laps or setup allowed. So even IT had more to give.
You can't win over low weight on real tracks and roads

If anyone remembers the SR3 time on the TopGear track, please post it.
They no longer list it !! I suspect the "big boys" came round and told them to take it down or Jeremy woudln't get his GT, the mouse wouldn't get another 911 or James wouldnt' get a haircut

[andy.muc]

I have an article in an issue of the "Sport Auto", where they tested
the Enzo, the CGT and the Zonda on a track...
I could post some details when i'm home...

[PerfAdv]

Interesting proposal.

But like bhp/litre or bhp/ton some will consider it pointless.
I liek th ecompairsons it turned up though

Also when you look at price you need to ensure there aren't market, currency or tax (import/export) skewing the numbers.

So their would need to be an accepted way to balance all of these out.
Otherwise you get "Car X is cheaper than Y in country Z so is better value" and yet the prices for the same cars in country W are the other way round hence making the original comment wrong !!

So for that we would need another proposal ...
the LOWEST price against reference currency in any country used as the benchmark.
Then all we have to agree is the 'reference currency'
The days of the dollar's stability are long gone, so which one ??

But we're adding more analyatical information to make balanced choices when in reality some will stay blind to the consideration of differences outside of their own backyard. So I suspect all the proposals will be ignored. Cant' have the "real world" altering perceptions

My point was not really to propose a workable quotient but to answer 'Slicks' comment:

In the end its the most expencive all the way.

Although, a quotient of some sort might be interesting, maybe within a certain class of car, it'll most likely be unfavorably slanted for some cars. And yes, currency variances and pricing differences would make it unworkable.
Making it futile. There is some merit in a cheaper car out performing a more expensive one but that doesn't take into account: original design purpose or intended market.

My point was to show that price is more or less meaningless is a purely speed comparison. Sort of like, someone who wholeheartedly loves their MX-5, counters to any speed argument with, "Yah, but the Miata is cheaper and performs remarkably well for the price." That's why my final comment in the 'quotient' post:

Clearly the NSX is a bad value if you look at it this way. But no one will pick an Integra in a race against the NSX. Doesn't matter how much it costs, it's still faster.

I guess I forgot my

[kko]

im going to have to look up this Zonda car. never heard of it in my life before i came here.

Dood like Oh Em Gee!