Engines 101 for Slick

[Matra et Alpine]

Over in the Elise thread a topic on comparison of European/japanes engines versus American engines in high performance cars came up.

To continue that discussion and education in fast saloon cars in Europe I've createfd this thread.

The next post will be a copy of Slick's last respones inthe Elise engine thread

[Matra et Alpine]

OK. But you're still only comparing the big ones shipped to you.
Radical, Lotus, Caterham. MG(!), Ford RS, Opel/Vauxhall, Renault, Citroen, Peugeot, Fiat ALL have performance versions of their cars which would see most American 'sports cars' in their mirrors on real roads. Again, you don't get to know about them.
Anyway, nothing to do with Elise engines, so we can either take this elsewheer or leave it as an exercise for the reader

We have Lotus here, the Esprit has a V8 that is physically larger than the LS1 and Ford 4.6. We also have Opel, and I know about all the companies you listed, just becasuse they are not here doesnt mean i dont know about them. MG uses Ford engines, Caterhams are more like motor cycles than cars, Renault, citrogen, peugeot, and fiat dont produce cars that could match the perfomance of a vette or viper, and for that price too.

[Matra et Alpine]

We have Lotus here, the Esprit has a V8 that is physically larger than the LS1 and Ford 4.6.

You prove my point again.

The later Esprit were developed for the US market.
So big engines went in which made it heavier so the engines had to be bigger still.

It's a pointless game.

Check out an Elise or Exige when they get state-side.

Renault Spider

Matra M25 ( unfortunately never saw production for political reasons ) but was THE fastest accelerating car in the world on street tyres and normal fuel.
1600cc engine

MG uses Ford engines

No, MG use the Rover K-series engine. NEVER has used Ford. long long time ago used BMC engines.

Caterhams are more like motor cycles than cars

Caterham Superlight are cars, just not in the air-conditioniing battle-tank mould
So are Westfields, Donkevoorts, Strikers and dozens of other fast, light sports cars around the world.

Renault, citrogen, peugeot, and fiat dont produce cars that could match the perfomance of a vette or viper, and for that price too.

I'd take a Clio V6 over a 'vette on a twisty road any day.
Focus RS, Alfa 166, Peugeot 206 GTi all are stunning handling and good performance.

I'll give the 'vette the top speed and the straight line acceleration, but a car that long does NOT turn in and "point-and-squirt" as well as lighter competition with less power and loses out on real roads away from highway/motorway/autobahns.

BTW, I have driven a Viper and it is a great car.
But I woulnd't buy one over here.
Likewise, I never wanted an original Mini when I worked in the US

Hopfeully, slick, this might expand your interest in cars of a different design criteria to the norm in the USA and you never know you may want one. The Elise will soon be for sale there.

[Coventrysucks]

No, MG use the Rover K-series engine. NEVER has used Ford. long long time ago used BMC engines.

Apart from the 4.6 Ford V8 in the Rover 75 V8, MG ZT260/385, and SV

[Matra et Alpine]

Apart from the 4.6 Ford V8 in the Rover 75 V8, MG ZT260/385, and SV

Thanks coventry, I'd forgotten - and I'd taken pics of it at Knockhill too !!!!

[Slicks]

You prove my point again.

The later Esprit were developed for the US market.
So big engines went in which made it heavier so the engines had to be bigger still.

It's a pointless game.

Renault Spider

Matra M25 ( unfortunately never saw production for political reasons ) but was THE fastest accelerating car in the world on street tyres and normal fuel.
1600cc engine


No, MG use the Rover K-series engine. NEVER has used Ford. long long time ago used BMC engines.


Caterham Superlight are cars, just not in the air-conditioniing battle-tank mould


I'd take a Clio V6 over a 'vette on a twisty road any day.

I'll give the 'vette the top speed and the straight line acceleration, but a car that long does NOT turn in and "point-and-squirt" as well as lighter competition with less power and loses out on real roads away from highway/motorway/autobahns.

Hopfeully, slick, this might expand your interest in cars of a different design criteria to the norm in the USA and you never know you may want one. The Elise will soon be for sale there.

How fast is this Marta M25?
The X-Power MG uses a Ford V8, and is not sold in america.

The Caterham Superlight is a great car, but like i said its more like a bike than a car. Holding the driver comfortably, with a passanger its a little tight. And hitting anything and you can kiss your life goodbye.

The renault spyder(i assume your talking about the spyder sport) and the Clio V6 both get slower times on the slalom than a Z06, and the Z06 has much higher skid pad #s. And i much rather be driving a 12-13 second car than a 14-16 second car. Id get more thrill out of being thrown back hard from the Z06 or normal vette, than taking a turn 10mph faster.
BTW the elise is and has been on the american market for quite a while, and every now and then i see a few around. I really like them, but would much prefer a vette for the same price. It would get better track times, and like i said i would get more of a thrill of being thrown back from the acceleration. And the vette sounds alot better

[Matra et Alpine]

The Caterham Superlight is a great car, but like i said its more like a bike than a car. Holding the driver comfortably, with a passanger its a little tight. And hitting anything and you can kiss your life goodbye.

With the race cage fitted it's as safe as anything else.

The renault spyder(i assume your talking about the spyder sport) and the Clio V6 both get slower times on the slalom than a Z06, and the Z06 has much higher skid pad #s.

I've had this discussion elsewhre.
Slalom is relativesly easy to get good times with big cars as you can plan the pitch and swing of the car to be in time with the slalom.
REAL roads are nothing like slaloms. You often have to change direction with shoirt notice.
One of the reasons Top Gear use a track and are much preferred for comparison is to emulate the real world and not a spec sheet capability.

And i much rather be driving a 12-13 second car than a 14-16 second car. Id get more thrill out of being thrown back hard from the Z06 or normal vette, than taking a turn 10mph faster.

Point accepted.
But let me ask how often you can enjoy each in the real world ?
The latter wins hands down for me

It would get better track times, and like i said i would get more of a thrill of being thrown back from the acceleration. And the vette sounds alot better

Really what tracks would you think a Vette would win ?
Something like Laguna I can believe for the lonhish straights.
But few tracks are like that.

Your coments remind me of a conversation with bike friends with a police rider with a Honda Pan-European with a V6 and an R1 rider. The R1 went on and on about the acceleration and the braking. They went out together and the Pan thrashed the R1. Because the Pan was being ridden hard THROUGH the corner so didn't need all that acceleration to try to make good pace.

Likewise, lighter cars can carry more speed through corners - changing corners where suspension has to work. Constant radius test don't actually map to the real world.

Sound is also a perrsonal thing.
I like the sound of a big V, no doubt that throaty burble and roar are nice. But nothing hets me going like a fast and high revving engine using peak power.

Liek this conversation started out way back on another thread.
US market is used to ( and hence likes ) big engines.

Eureop tends to prefer faster revving.

[Slicks]

but a car that long does NOT turn in and "point-and-squirt" as well as lighter competition with less power and loses out on real roads away from highway/motorway/autobahns.

The vettes wheel base is only about 4.5 inches longer, and its less than 50lbs heavier.

Point accepted.
But let me ask how often you can enjoy each in the real world ?
The latter wins hands down for me

If your asking how often i can enjoy acceleration or handling in the real world, accleration would definetly take the cake. I rather do a quick 0-60 than find a nice turn that noone is on and take that fast. I more often on strait roads than twisty ones.

Really what tracks would you think a Vette would win ?
Something like Laguna I can believe for the lonhish straights.
But few tracks are like that.

Yes on a big track the vette has the advantage of top speed, and even on a small twisty track the vette still breaks better, and accelerates faster.

Likewise, lighter cars can carry more speed through corners - changing corners where suspension has to work. Constant radius test don't actually map to the real world.

Agreed but the Z06 is 32lbs heavier, which is unnoticable.

Sound is also a perrsonal thing.
I like the sound of a big V, no doubt that throaty burble and roar are nice. But nothing hets me going like a fast and high revving engine using peak power.

True, but i like the sound of muscular cars mainly because they sound good all the way throught he RPM range. Most high revving cars sound like a weed wacker at idle.

Liek this conversation started out way back on another thread.
US market is used to ( and hence likes ) big engines.

Now that is untrue, just because were used to something doesnt mean we like it. Hell, im used to seeing atleast one ricer a day, but that doesnt mean i like it. I for one dont really like big engines, unless in something like a truck. I like them small and compact, yet powerful, and have plenty of torque. Hence the love for the LS1, and other small, light weight V8s. I dont prefer the smaller displace engines(perfomance based) becasuse most dont have torque, sound terreble, have bad fuel efficientcy compared to the "bigger engines, and are most of the time over weight, and over sized for the amount of power produced.

[Matra et Alpine]

The vettes wheel base is only about 4.5 inches longer, and its less than 50lbs heavier.

Well that is 15 INCHES longer than an Elise or similar nimble car.
Comparing one US tank with another is about the equivalent of saying that carrots make better fruit than cabbages

If your asking how often i can enjoy acceleration or handling in the real world, accleration would definetly take the cake. I rather do a quick 0-60 than find a nice turn that noone is on and take that fast. I more often on strait roads than twisty ones.

That was partly my point explaining the differnece between the typical US car nut and elsewhere, But we ALL enjoy acceleration

Yes on a big track the vette has the advantage of top speed, and even on a small twisty track the vette still breaks better, and accelerates faster.

I'll accept the vette beats the Z06, but I was trying to bring another angle on the car choices you compare.
It takes a fully prepped race version of the cars to beat on track performance of run of the mill sports and fast cars. The Saleen race car IS awesome round Knockhill. But it couldn't beat the track time of a Legend , Caterham, Radical, Exige !!

Agreed but the Z06 is 32lbs heavier, which is unnoticable.

That's 10% of the wait of a real sports car
Though by the time BFB like me gets in it's all irrelevant [ BFB == Big Fat B*****d ]

True, but i like the sound of muscular cars mainly because they sound good all the way throught he RPM range. Most high revving cars sound like a weed wacker at idle.

Because you are used to hearing big V8s all around. THAT'S MY POINT !!!

Now that is untrue, just because were used to something doesnt mean we like it. Hell, im used to seeing atleast one ricer a day, but that doesnt mean i like it.

duh !! and to that one ricer you see 10 THOUSAND V8s
Still don't get the "social influence" do you.
That's a reason we don't like BIG cars much.
They look "wrong", that doens't make them wrong but it IS a socially-influenced opinion.

I for one dont really like big engines, unless in something like a truck. I like them small and compact, yet powerful, and have plenty of torque. Hence the love for the LS1, and other small, light weight V8s.

You've taken this tack before.
For ever lightweight V8 there are many lightweight I4s.
You tried to justify by choosing heavy I4s.
Please try to be objective and compare like with like.

I dont prefer the smaller displace engines(perfomance based) becasuse most dont have torque, sound terreble, have bad fuel efficientcy compared to the "bigger engines, and are most of the time over weight, and over sized for the amount of power produced.

You've stopped reading about small lightweight engines in the 1960s ??
You're list is 99% wrong.
Fuel efficiency is the one I'll partially accept. In an American car a small engine is higher stressed and a bigger V8 will pull better and do better on fuel efficiency. BUT, take a lighter car and the roles are reversed. When has a V8 EVERY got 50-60 mpg ?? Tha's become the accepted high-end of the showroom market. 30-40 is the norm, most folks would baulk at buying a familty saloon which did not get that in the tests.
In terms of power to weight ratio, then accepted that trying to get over 300 bhp from an I4 is MUCH harder than in a V8 and usually means the I4 is heavier than it's lower powered counterparts. BUT, you don't NEED 300bhp if the car weighs half as much. THAT is still the cultural difference I'm failing to get over.

Recapping, I like big V8 muscle cars. They have their place in motorsport and in 'cruising'. Drag strip will belong to top fuel which can only be handled in a big V8 ( the forces would tear an I4 crank out ). But blindly claiming superiority because a 'vette is better than a Z06 ( or vice-versa ) is forgetting that they're middle of the pack performance wise on roads and tracks.

[Matra et Alpine]

Missed your question on the Matra M25 earlier.

IT was a trick input, sorry

The M25 was Matra's proposal for a new sportscar for the road recognising that authorities in Europe were clamping down on speeding. So they proposed a car which accelerated. 0-60 in 4 seconds, not bad for a street car in 1987 Geared for acceleraiont it's top speed was only 120mph.

They built one and it did what they said
Shame that Renault had their own ideas at the time of what a sportscar should be. Thankfully the Renault Spider borrowed from the M25 and things turned out for the better Except the Spider never quite matched the M25

[Coventrysucks]

...a 'vette is better than a Z06 ...

A Z06 is a Corvette

I think you are underestimating the potency of the Corvette here.
Most people in the UK have very limited knowledge of the current crop of US Muscle, and from seeing videos of a Z06 around the Nurburgring, it has very capable handling, considering the supposed lumbering size and weight you seem to think it has.

Yes, things like a Caterham or a Radical are obviously going to be quicker than a Corvette, but then they are half the weight, and not just of the Corvette, but half the weight of almost everything else on the roads.

I think if an American manufacturer decided to build a rival to the elise, they would be able to make a good job of it. I don't know if they would be able to get the chassis set up as nicely as British engineers seem to, but I think they could make it competative.

However, the market for that type of car is much smaller than the market for the Corvette et al. Being performance cars, capable of carrying two people and their luggage over long distances in comfort, and then going tear-a*seing around a track.

American cars are ideally suited to America, and European cars are ideally suited to Europe, trying to compare one against the other is much more Cabbages and Carrots

[Matra et Alpine]

A Z06 is a Corvette

My typo, slicks had been comparing the 'vette with the Esprit.

I think you are underestimating the potency of the Corvette here.
Most people in the UK have very limited knowledge of the current crop of US Muscle, and from seeing videos of a Z06 around the Nurburgring, it has very capable handling, considering the supposed lumbering size and weight you seem to think it has.

The 'ring Z06 was heavily modified for the track !
If you're going to do THAT comparison then you should find the Exige one, it's equally awesome.

I've been on track with Saleens and I've been IN a Viper, I know the performance ( and limitations ) of the 'stock' cars.

Yes, things like a Caterham or a Radical are obviously going to be quicker than a Corvette, but then they are half the weight, and not just of the Corvette, but half the weight of almost everything else on the roads.

This was where I wasn't sure myself if slicks appreciated the difference and that more power with bigger engines means more weight which drives a need for more power which ... ad infinitum. Lateral thinking produces things like the Radical and the Deronda

I think if an American manufacturer decided to build a rival to the elise, they would be able to make a good job of it. I don't know if they would be able to get the chassis set up as nicely as British engineers seem to, but I think they could make it competative.

I disagree with you there.
Renault failed to produce and Elise-beater and were using similar technology.
There is a LOT more to geting it right than just the designers, it takes a mindset.
One that's not easy to buy in - just ask M-B in F1

However, the market for that type of car is much smaller than the market for the Corvette et al. Being performance cars, capable of carrying two people and their luggage over long distances in comfort, and then going tear-a*seing around a track.

Not sure the point here coventry.
MY A610 does both quite well for a 14 year old design
And IT can carry 4 ( as long as the 2 in the back are either kids is have VERY short legs
A Subaru or Evo 7 do quite well carrying the kids to school. They're becoming the equivalnet of the US soccer-mom-SUV over here !!

American cars are ideally suited to America, and European cars are ideally suited to Europe, trying to compare one against the other is much more Cabbages and Carrots

I've traveled to the US regulalry for over 20 years now and I have to point out that their is more recognition of influence of the small cars and European/Japanese designs on the US market than there has been the other way round.
You can't squeeze a quart into a pint pot --- but you can put a pint into a quart can

Was lucky to talk to the Radical rep at Knockhill - they are developing a V8 version for even more performance ... ( for the US market ? . Here's the engine - two Hayabusa blocks combined with innovative casing and bottom end.... and details at http://www.radicalmotorsport.com/new...r/v8/index.php

Fastest lap of the 'ring now belongs to the Radical SR-3, don't know if there are any videos of it. Will ask nex time I meet the guys.
BUT I *WILL* accept that whilst the Rad is a street car it goes no way to being usable as normal transport


Anyway, slicks and I are having fun and we'd brought it here from elsewhere to have our own on-topic tirades

[Slicks]

Well that is 15 INCHES longer than an Elise or similar nimble car.
Comparing one US tank with another is about the equivalent of saying that carrots make better fruit than cabbages

But were not talking about the elise anymore

That was partly my point explaining the differnece between the typical US car nut and elsewhere, But we ALL enjoy acceleration

Hey everyone is different, but what are you saying then, the typican european like to corner fast rather than accelerate fast?

That's 10% of the wait of a real sports car
Though by the time BFB like me gets in it's all irrelevant [ BFB == Big Fat B*****d ]

Do you mean weight?(thats ok im a bad speller too )
It depends on what you view as a sports car. Do you think that than every car heavier than 3000lbs is not a sports car? IMO thats rediculous.

Because you are used to hearing big V8s all around. THAT'S MY POINT !!!

duh !! and to that one ricer you see 10 THOUSAND V8s
Still don't get the "social influence" do you.
That's a reason we don't like BIG cars much.
They look "wrong", that doens't make them wrong but it IS a socially-influenced opinion.

Thats untrue, i hear as many V8s as i do I4s, and I6/V6. The most common V8s are in trucks(being that they are the most sold cars in the US) That doesnt mean i like them though. And are you saying your socially influenced to like small displaced light cars?

You've taken this tack before.
For ever lightweight V8 there are many lightweight I4s.
You tried to justify by choosing heavy I4s.
Please try to be objective and compare like with like.

I was trying to compare powerfull N/A I4s.

You've stopped reading about small lightweight engines in the 1960s ??
You're list is 99% wrong.
Fuel efficiency is the one I'll partially accept. In an American car a small engine is higher stressed and a bigger V8 will pull better and do better on fuel efficiency. BUT, take a lighter car and the roles are reversed. When has a V8 EVERY got 50-60 mpg ?? Tha's become the accepted high-end of the showroom market. 30-40 is the norm, most folks would baulk at buying a familty saloon which did not get that in the tests.
In terms of power to weight ratio, then accepted that trying to get over 300 bhp from an I4 is MUCH harder than in a V8 and usually means the I4 is heavier than it's lower powered counterparts. BUT, you don't NEED 300bhp if the car weighs half as much. THAT is still the cultural difference I'm failing to get over.

Are V8s make make increadable power for how much they weigh. What performance I4s make 30mpg, and still get a reasonable amount of power. Like i said im talking about perfomance engines, i know I4s are great for fuel economy in family cars. And remember you can only make a car so light, after that its up to making more power. I know there are limits in power for V8s, but there high as hell.

[Matra et Alpine]

But were not talking about the elise anymore

Sorry slicks, I know you used the Esprit as the example of choice. I'd already tried to push that aside as a car updated and made 'bigger' FOR the US market.

Hey everyone is different, but what are you saying then, the typican european like to corner fast rather than accelerate fast?

Pretty much - handling important.
Remember we don't have 20 miles of arrow straight roads ANYWHERE.
Our geography forced roads with many twists and turns - even our motorways
But like all things I think we would all like everything !!

Do you mean weight?(thats ok im a bad speller too )
It depends on what you view as a sports car. Do you think that than every car heavier than 3000lbs is not a sports car? IMO thats rediculous.

Why ?
That weight means it will struggle to turn and change direction.
MASS is the killer in cornering.
Shock absorbers and springs are stressed, bad
Brakes need to be BIG and can suffer bad fade on twisties.
2000 pounds is a heavy car for us.
1000 pounds is a serious track car.

What do you call a sports car ? Surely it's a car designed and built for performance. So why so heavy when it can be engineered lighter.
The US market has a history of car tests which drove the industry to bigger and heavier vehicles to survice the test. In Europe they develoepd deformable crash zones to absorb the impact ( I'm not claiming it is right or perfect as some cars were also designed to pass the test but failed in real world crashes BADLY )

Thats untrue, i hear as many V8s as i do I4s, and I6/V6. The most common V8s are in trucks(being that they are the most sold cars in the US) That doesnt mean i like them though. And are you saying your socially influenced to like small displaced light cars?

I'm maybe seeing them more often when I'm over, certainly every rental I've had has been a V6 or V8.
Social influence occurs all the time. Of course anyone in Europe is "used to seeing" smaller, lighter cars and very small sportscars. Look at Alpine A110s, MGs, Spitfires, Matra Bagheera/Murenas. That's where our surroundings influence us. Americans are used to much larger cars.

I was trying to compare powerfull N/A I4s.
Are V8s make make increadable power for how much they weigh. What performance I4s make 30mpg, and still get a reasonable amount of power.

Clio 182 Sport 0-60 in 7s 140mph 4-seater family hatchback gets 35mpg in the Urban cycle which equated to real world driving. Not sure what it gets steady 55mph motorway, but usually cars are 30-40% higher so could be 50mpg.
90bhp/litre. The Z06 gets 71bhp/litre.
HOWEVER, 150 foot pounds rather than a stonking 400 with the 'vette !
Hence why we rev higher and change gear lots to keep ahead.

But that's not pushing the envelope

I've already agreed with you that as power output requirements increase then a V8 will be best. Equally for higher still then V10, 12 and 16 have been built.
BUT for the 300-400hp/ton performance then I'm suggesting that smaller, lighter cars and tuned light engines make a more sensible choice than bigger engines in heavier cars.

Like i said im talking about perfomance engines, i know I4s are great for fuel economy in family cars. And remember you can only make a car so light, after that its up to making more power. I know there are limits in power for V8s, but there high as hell.

Depends what you mean by only so light.
Manufacturers can make cars sub 1000kg ( 2250 pounds ) and still pass all the safety crashes and side impacts etc etc.
So already it could be 50% lighter than a 3000 pound "sportscar".
50% lighter measn 50% less breaking needed and less heat -- less fade.
50% less work on the shocks so less likelihood of 'fade'.
50% less power needed to do the same accelleration.
50% smaller engine - 3 litre V6/8 becomes a 2llitre I4 ?? - Only teasin

Now I accept that in the race for more power that bigger IS best ( top fuel dragsters being second only to rockets ). But given that they need to be driven on real roads there is a limit. I'd love to find how long a set of tyres last on something liek a Lingenfelter. They're SO wide and large footprint that the scrub must be sever on cornering. I know from my Matra that serious scrub wear halves the life of the rears

The real advantage that V8s have is balance and that's the real winner as power increases.
I'd love to see a revisit to small V8s.
Radical are playing with a 2litre V8 configuration for their next car.
Then we'd get the great sound that V8 pulses produce *AND* an engine capable of screaming high revs
BTW, have you heard the 'burble' from the MG Power SV I posted up ? I've never heard such a sweet 'blurp' from an exhaust

[Slicks]

Pretty much - handling important.
Remember we don't have 20 miles of arrow straight roads ANYWHERE.
Our geography forced roads with many twists and turns - even our motorways
But like all things I think we would all like everything !!

Wow, i thought you guys had more strait aways than that. I have miles and miles of strait highway where a car could easily get to 170mph.

Why ?
That weight means it will struggle to turn and change direction.
MASS is the killer in cornering.
Shock absorbers and springs are stressed, bad
Brakes need to be BIG and can suffer bad fade on twisties.
2000 pounds is a heavy car for us.
1000 pounds is a serious track car.

I know, and totally agree, but car companies make cars to sell them, so not every company can make a profit off small, super weight weight cars. There are alot of cars that you would consider heavy that handle like no other, youd be surprised.(great example would be Corvette Z06)

What do you call a sports car ? Surely it's a car designed and built for performance. So why so heavy when it can be engineered lighter.
The US market has a history of car tests which drove the industry to bigger and heavier vehicles to survice the test. In Europe they develoepd deformable crash zones to absorb the impact ( I'm not claiming it is right or perfect as some cars were also designed to pass the test but failed in real world crashes BADLY )

My personal definition of a sports car is RWD or AWD, 2 seats, and IRS. You wouldnt call a Ferrari Enzo a sports car, its heavier than a Z06. What about the McLearen F1, thats 2600lbs, the Porche carrera GT is 3000lbs, BMW M3 CLS is 3000lbs, that just a few off the top of my head. You wouldnt call those sports car because there to "heavy"?

Clio 182 Sport 0-60 in 7s 140mph 4-seater family hatchback gets 35mpg in the Urban cycle which equated to real world driving. Not sure what it gets steady 55mph motorway, but usually cars are 30-40% higher so could be 50mpg.
90bhp/litre. The Z06 gets 71bhp/litre.
HOWEVER, 150 foot pounds rather than a stonking 400 with the 'vette !
Hence why we rev higher and change gear lots to keep ahead.

To me 0-60 in 7 seconds is a complete joke for a sports car. Most of our family cars do that, hell my moms van does that(yes i timed it ) I thought you would be knowledgable enough not to bring up hp/l, thats what ricers say. HP/L on street cars effects perfomance in now way what so ever.

Depends what you mean by only so light.
Manufacturers can make cars sub 1000kg ( 2250 pounds ) and still pass all the safety crashes and side impacts etc etc.
So already it could be 50% lighter than a 3000 pound "sportscar".
50% lighter measn 50% less breaking needed and less heat -- less fade.
50% less work on the shocks so less likelihood of 'fade'.
50% less power needed to do the same accelleration.

What im saying is as long as there is mass to the car, than there wil lbe weight. We can always find more ways to make more power.

Now I accept that in the race for more power that bigger IS best ( top fuel dragsters being second only to rockets ). But given that they need to be driven on real roads there is a limit. I'd love to find how long a set of tyres last on something liek a Lingenfelter. They're SO wide and large footprint that the scrub must be sever on cornering. I know from my Matra that serious scrub wear halves the life of the rears

To give you an idea, i know that the 4 second top fuel dragsters go through a new set of tires about every 4 runs if i remeber right. The tires are not that wide, the street ones are the same size as stock, and the drag street ones anrt that much bigger. But the wider the tire the more the grip. heres a cool video of the 427 running the quarter here

The real advantage that V8s have is balance and that's the real winner as power increases.
I'd love to see a revisit to small V8s.
Radical are playing with a 2litre V8 configuration for their next car.
Then we'd get the great sound that V8 pulses produce *AND* an engine capable of screaming high revs
BTW, have you heard the 'burble' from the MG Power SV I posted up ? I've never heard such a sweet 'blurp' from an exhaust

Never saw that clip, ill look for it.