2010 Turkish Grand Prix (May 28-30)

[Dino Scuderia]

Still don't understand why Vettel turned into Webber...it was definitely a bad decision on Vettel's part. The pass was never going to happen unless Webber rolled over and played dead gifting the position which he wasn't obligated to do.

I suspect Vettel is feeling a bit under the gun given Webber's recent performance and tried to make something happen.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxuCv-uofeI&feature=related]YouTube - Crash Webber x Vettel - GP Turkey[/ame]

[Matra et Alpine]

“The one thing I always ask the drivers is that, yes, they can race each other, but give each other room, and that’s exactly what didn’t happen. They were too far over on the left, Sebastian got a run on the inside of Mark, but then came across too early. They didn’t give each other room; it’s as simple as that

As diplomatic as he could be about it I reckon

So as clearly a leading driver can't be expected to leave room for a following driver all the time then it all falls down to Vettel's move ... which the team boss is quite clear about

As far as Vettel's mood goes, the BBC team said Mark was running new rear wing parts NOT available to Vettel, so maybe he decided that he should exact soem revenge for "favouritism" The rumour mill is running 100%

[IBrake4Rainbows]

Vettel turned into Webber to get a better line into the next turn.

Maybe he wasn't using his mirrors to Merge?

[henk4]

Vettel turned into Webber to get a better line into the next turn.

Maybe he wasn't using his mirrors to Merge?

It looks like Webber was turning into Webber to get HIS line into the next turn. Unfortunately Webber was still there.

[RacingManiac]

Well I doubt given the visibility of the Mirror he can see him at all at that point.....

While its a boneheaded move on Vettel's part I reckon, Webber's sense of self-preservation and big picture should at least do some kind of avoidance before they got together.....not just drove straight on and letting it happen....

Granted in hindsight Webber won out ultimately by virtue of him not DNF-ing the race, finished 3rd with 15 pts lead ahead of Vettel, but it could easily have been a DNF and both scored nothing....

[Matra et Alpine]

THe problem I have with that appraoch - expecting a driver to move out to make it easier for another driver - is that was the reason DC never got lead drive or won a championship.

A great driver, VERY good at working on chassis development and set up, fast.
BUT .... never had the "killer instinct" ... a nice, good race driver.
BUT F1 is full of ego-driven sh*theads and you won't win there.

Mark and DC I see parallels. 'Bout time Mark started making it clear he won't roll over
SImple now, Vettel won't try another stupid maneouvre on Webber
Result for Mark, finishing the race was just jam on that piece of cake

[IBrake4Rainbows]

Thats just it, Vettel went for the kill and ended up anheroing.

Webber will cop the flak though, He doesn't speak German...

[RacingManiac]

There is a difference between rolling over and let him through and retreating a bit to fight for the next corner. Much like the later Hamilton vs Button scrap. If Webber had just avoided letting Seb run into him, there is every chance that Seb can still run wide or at least runs a compromised line that Webber can do the same thing as Hamilton and set him up for the exit onto the front straight and try to get the position back in Turn 1. And there is still the issue of team mates, you really should race your team mate differently than others....since at the end of the day you are answering to the same boss....

I think while as I said the move on Seb's part is boneheaded, the ensuing collision was avoidable by Webber.

[Dino Scuderia]

Vettel turned into Webber to get a better line into the next turn.

Maybe he wasn't using his mirrors to Merge?

I agree, he was probably trying to get a better line.... but he put himself in the position of assuming what the other driver would as well as pushing the brake zone... and make millisecond decisions in the heat of it.

Like Matra said, Vettel will likely think twice before he tries Webber like that again...and I suspect the occasion will present itself more than once before season end.

Kudos to Webber.

[Matra et Alpine]

There is a difference between rolling over and let him through and retreating a bit to fight for the next corner.

BUT, Why should Webber position himself to then "fight for the next corner". He HAD the corner.

Much like the later Hamilton vs Button scrap.

Which part ?
The bit whre Button did a really clean manouvre on Hamilton, gave him space and made the overtake ... OR, the return overtake by Hamilton where he BUMPED WHEELS mid corner to "make the space for himself".

If Webber had just avoided letting Seb run into him, there is every chance that Seb can still run wide

OK, gonna upset a few featheres (again) but that's jsut NEVER goin to happen in a race by a racing driver wishign to win.
Follow the logic through, Mark gives him space and puts himself into a poorer position in the corner, Vettel takes the corner and then Webber ins't in a place to take it back .. becauase he was IN A POOR POSITION.
It's nothing like the McLaren duel where Jenson planned to be in a strong position. HE was making the overtake.
Hamilton's return I'd say confirms the point made already... the one who muscles his team mate "wins".
Nice guys dont' make it in F1 any more.

And there is still the issue of team mates, you really should race your team mate differently than others....since at the end of the day you are answering to the same boss....

F1 has two Championships.
FIRST is the drivers, second is the Team.
Take it away from F1 for a moment .. Chip Ganassi doesn't expect his varisou drivers to give way to each other

Also, it is just not possible on a race track at race speeds to add in the "different treatment" for team drivers. Because to do so woudl need MORE attention paid to the mirrors and positioning etc. No, that is a guarantee to end up driving slower ALL the time. You have to race and the cars behind are just that -- cars, shapes. Those extra milliseconds of concetration coming to a braking point can mean braking 1metre later .. adn that is potential win decision. WHO woudl compromise that ?

I think while as I said the move on Seb's part is boneheaded, the ensuing collision was avoidable by Webber.

Last repeat ... NOT in real world racing it wasn't.
Because all the consequences of doing so woudl make it as relevant as a PS3 arcade racing game.
The real world is WAY different.

Thinking through the ramifications beyond the one corner and it's pretty obvious. What happens NEXT race when Vettel comes up behind ? What if not as close as that time ? Still give way ? If you give way .. HOW do you make sure others don't follow - that's a REAL losing decision. Remember, teams are NOT allowed to control track position, so no radio chatter to say who's coming through etc etc. AND heaven forbid they ever let it

Just imagine for a second the extra thinking that is putting in to a race driver. Racing in the real world is a 100% attention, focus and effort. Adding other "stuff" is a definate way to lose.

[torque55]

well regerdless of whose fault it was, this definatly shows the lack of professionalism within the team. Its not the the 1st mistake redbull have done this season, mclaren capitalised on the situation, and even demonstrated to redbull how these manuveurs should be executed. I hope they learn soething from that lesson, otherwise they wont win any titles this season whilst having the best car.

[Matra et Alpine]

IF F1 was a "team sport" then I'd agree.

But it's not.
F1 is first and foremost a DRIVERS championship.
Teams caught giving "team orders" get fined and points deducted.

So within those constraints, "professionalism" is a driver-centric need and Webber did what he did and Vettel tried a brusing overtake and got stung. Only he looks bad.

[henk4]

I think it is a misunderstanding that F1 is a drivers championship. The constructors championship is for the teams far more important. See why Damon Hill was dumped after becoming world champion....It is the constructors championship that also determines some of the financial goodies that Bernie is dropping around from time to time.
For the man in the street the World Champion driver is the hero, for the teams he is just a means to achieve their goal. And they have become very clever in giving team orders without people taking too much notice.

[Matra et Alpine]

^ If that was true we'd see examples of team results manipulation to ensure TEAM wins and not personal.

AND the podium would present team prizes first and play the team anthem first.

They dont.

HOWEVER, I do concur that teams have a desire to ensure they win the championship and SOME -- eg Ron Dennis have NEVER seen the driver as important.

Michael Schumacher was the highest paid driver ever, one driver can't win a TEAM championship, he can only help get some of the way. SO I suggest their is evidence of the contrary.

McLaren continue to have their "unique" mindset created by Ron Dennis and thus have two recent world champions. Clearly an approach to maximise points for the team at the risk of not winning drivers championship.

Teams are the business side of F1 for sure.

Suggestions of collusion to give team orders are hard to support when stupid things like Vettel's accident and Button's overtake on Hamilton turn up so often .....

How the new points system affects driver versus cars points I've not yet seen analysed, but certainly changes the win-win balance

Equally I've not seen the figures Bernie hands out for points at the end of the 2010 season or the real cost of the "free transport" clause for the "above average teams".

If F1 were to run as a TEAM championship then it will destroy the support it gets.
So I agree, the team championship matters to the teams, but the DRIVERS is the one Bernie wants to see fought over to ensure his income .... again look at the efforts he puts in to "guide" drivers to teams to maximise interest

[henk4]

As the teams tell the drivers what to do during the races, they will take their interest first.....perhaps we should forbid radio contact or pit wall signals?
That Bernie wants to present us with a different picture is a romantic fallacy. Teams enter the F1 circus not to breed world champion drivers, but to become the world champion team.